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Makes me wonder sometimes.

B

bretnutz

Glorious 22nd Corps
Long ago you only had some knowledge of WW2 Aircraft...

With everyone from all the cornors of the world...and the information at there finger tips...and stories from people who were there.

You have grown in the study of History and Battles that you never heared of...

It makes me wonder....What would have happened if some planes were able to be used to there Full Potential...or the planes were built sooner.

case in point ......if say the French had more C174's to battle the Germans during the Battle of France..

the Germans had More Me262's to defend Berlin...


It just makes me wonder sometimes.....:guinness:
 
Not C-714s.....they needed Arsenal VG-33s and Dewoitine D-520s.
 
Alternative history is always fun to kick around.
What if the major US carriers had been sunk at Pearl Harbor, or the Midway battle had gone totally in favor of the Japanese? That would have given Japan at least a year to consolidate its gains in Asia with little chance of any significant Allied opposition.
What if the Allies had been defeated in North Africa, instead of Rommel? The Med would have become an Axis lake and the entire Middle East would have been accessible to the Germans.
And yeah, how about those Me-262's? What if production had not been delayed, or the plane had come on line a year earlier?
It's easy to see how just a few setbacks for the Allies could have easily lengthened the war into 1947-48, or even changed the outcome.
 
Or, one of the biggies: What if Hitler had not had to bail out Mussolini in the first place in the Balkans and the Mediterranean, and had been able to invade Russia on April 22nd, 1941 as was originally intended?
 
Rami said:
Or, one of the biggies: What if Hitler had not had to bail out Mussolini in the first place in the Balkans and the Mediterranean, and had been able to invade Russia on April 22nd, 1941 as was originally intended?
Click to expand...

Probably nothing... It's one of the biggest mith of WW2. In the worst scenario, Stalin would go for the Urals and the fight would last one or two years more. A lot of modern historians says that the Balkans has little interference over Barbarossa.

Cheers

Pepe
 
I have to Agree with Peperez. Hitler should not have Invaded Russia period. That was his down fall. to make matter worst he did not have to declare war on the USA either. Germany was doom as soon as it invaded Russia since is much Bigger and indefinitly more powerful.

I have come to this conclusion after medidating this Myth scenerios for a long time. I have come to the conclusion that it was the poor Germany Intellingence service that really hurt the German war effort. The Germans never had a proper assement of the Russians Military capability.

Had they known the real strength of the Russian forces they would have not Invaded it. As impressive as the Nazi forces that Invaded Russian look on paper they where wulfoly short of what was really needed to Invade such a large country.

The 2500 Tank that participated in the Invation was by the way too few when they propably needed over 6,000. The same can bee said of the size of the Luwftwaffe.

Most of us do not realize how big Russia and China really are. Its very size will swallow up large forces and negative your force effectiness on its own. You got to remember the the German Army of June 22.1941 was conter to popular believe mostly a Infantry Force!

No matter how deep the Panther Tank forces would advance they always depended on the Infantry to colsolidate the area they cover. They did have some spectacular Tactical Victories over the Russians at the begining of the war due to their superior training and Stalin eliminating a large number of the Russian Army Offissor before the war.Germany was poorly prepare to fight a long drawn war.

You see they probably never had a real chance once the Russian decided to fight on no matter what the casualties it would require to get the Victory.

Had the Battle of Midway had gone the Japanese way it would not change anything but it would have complicated the war for the allies. Hawaii would of probably been Invaded and Australia would probably had to settle with the Japanese.

But lets not forget who develope the Atomic Bomb first.

So you see in the End we would have won the war anyway!
 
And the biggest what if of them all.Before any of the battles mentioned above.

What if the RAF had failed in the Battle of Britain?????
Germany would have been able to use many of the troops and aircraft from France against Russia.
Supplies to the African front would have ceased.
Japan would of help the upper hand much earlier in the Pacific.
And of course the greatest aircraft carrier of them all,Great Britain would have been denied to the USAAF.

Now theres something to think about.
 
Leaving Britain on its own after nearly getting hand of it was a major mistake.

Without Britain, the world would have needed a few years more to get a chance to open a second front in the west.

Probably they would have gone via Spain, maybe to get a foot on the European continent?
 
The Battle of Britain was the most important Battle of WW2 in my opinion, Had Hitler insisted in Invading Britain I"am sure the Nazis would have succeded.It would have been very costly campaign for Gemany but their economical and military power over Britain at that time was overwhelming.

Britain stop been a World power after WW1. WW1 took the life and soul of Britain. After that war it was a power mainly in Image.

Thats the only way the Axis could have won the war. There is no way the USA was going to be able to embark a major military sea operation all the way from its shore. they would have had to accept Nazi occupation of Europe as defacto.

The Other great Battle of WW2 is the Battle Midway. Evendow I wrote before that we would have won anyway. It could have change the Dynamic of the war completly.

Its facinating to contemplate this two hypothetical settings as alternative History to WW2.

I"am glad that this events never happen but what is scary it that they could have!

I believe that Germany and Japan are better off that they never happen in my opinion!
 
miamieagle,

I cannot realy agree with your post on the German intel towards Russia. Due to the collabaration in the 30th the Wehrmacht had a very realistic idea about the potential of the Russian Forces and a good understanding how vast this country is.
On top of that the German Army had a splendid intelligence group called "Fremde Heere Ost" (Forgeign Armies East of Germany) led by a former Colonel and later General Gehlen. These guys were that good that the entire team became the core of the Federal German Intel Service after 1949 (in the meantime they worked for the US). Gehlen remained head of the German Intel Service for some 15 years until he became old and some civil officials convinced the Government that they could handle that kind of stuff much better.
Gehlen had a clear picture of the strenght and weakness of the Russion Forces and he said so. But as so often the political and military masters didn' t listen or didn' t believed him.

Baseline: Intel was available but Hitler believed that he knew it better.

Cheers

Achim
 
What did Hitler say?

Something like: "Russia is like a rotten edifice; Kick in the front door and the whole building will collapse."

He was almost right. Stalin had purged (killed or jailed) many of his officers and inteligencia in the mid to late 30s and his Army was in many ways almost leaderless. It's amazing that they were able to recover as well as they did. I tend to think that the delay due to the Balkans as well as one of the worst winters during Barbarosa since 1812 (Napoleon's retreat) all came to the aid of the Stalin.
 
This is a great post on a very interesting subject with many point of views. there is a no total wrong or right as everthing about this subject has many different ways of seeing it.

I respectfully disagree with you both on this subject!

The Nazi in my opinion had the worst Intellingence servive that a powerful country like Germany was at that time should of had. Thats the reason the got the it wrong went where the Allies where going to land in June 1944. Thats reason the thought the Russian campaign was going to over in three month in stead it took fours years and it ended in the defeat of Germany 1945.

They did not tried to inform Hitler of the true potential of the USA and it did t not tried to debated or tried to persuade Hitler not to declare war on the USA. A huge miscalculation.

They got dump by the British over and over again on many ocations including in the Battle of El Alamein and many othe there after.

It got dump by a dead cadaver picked up in Spain in believing the the Allies where going to invade the Balkans instead of Sicily.

I can go on and on. For a power at that of the qualiver of Germany its intellingence service was very poor in comparison to Its enemy.

The Russian where even able to penetrate the German high command. Something the German and Japanese where never able to do to the Allies.

They where always guesing instead of reactive to real time information.

The Allies where able to break their coding capabilities and they and the Japanese where never able to figure it out.

Amazing

Jag Hard Winters in Russia are a norm in October.

Nothing new.

They should have plan for it!

Even if they had taken Moscow in my opinion Gemany would of lost the war as long as the Russian did not lose their will to fight. As matter of fact it might have make easier for the Russian since soon after taking Moscow they would of had to retreat from it because they where not ready for such a hard winter. Remember the Russian counter offensive of Dec 1941.

That Offensive was poorly organize but highly effective.

Hey Guy !I love this kind of debates as long we repect each other opinion and do not take it personaly.
 
If supplies coming across the Atlantic got total cut off, that might of had an effect on things, also. Well, I'm glad most of us are "friendly" now
 
The biggest mistake of WWII was Nazi arrogance. Without it they would probably still be a world power.

The second biggest mistake of WWII was Imperial Japanese arrogance. Without it they would probably still be a world power.

Arrogance is like a cancer among men. It has to be completely removed. Just something to remember I suppose.
 
Having considered this for quite a while and knowing quite a bit about the Battle of Britain there were two significant errors made by the Luftwaffe, one right at the top and one at the operational level.

Goering had no grasp of how important radar was to the defence of Britain.

The other was an error in navigation that caused the German bombers to unintentionally bomb the East End. This in turn gave the good cause for Bomber Command to be unleashed on Berlin. The response to that was the Luftwaffe be turned full force on London and allowing 11 Group breathing room.

Another thing that seriously hampered the British was the erroneous feeling of how much more effective large numbers of .303s could be compared with fewer larger calibre weapons.

Camm put forward a four-cannon Hurricane as early as 1937!
 
erufle said:
The biggest mistake of WWII was Nazi arrogance. Without it they would probably still be a world power.

The second biggest mistake of WWII was Imperial Japanese arrogance. Without it they would probably still be a world power.

Arrogance is like a cancer among men. It has to be completely removed. Just something to remember I suppose.
Click to expand...

In my opinion this is the true point of all of this discussion, gentlemen.

Achim is right when he writes that Germany had good intelligence, but Hitler and the top nazi officials deeply believed the Russians were "untermenchen", inferior human beings, worthless scum. Historians always reported the correct intelligence reports were forwarded to Hitler, who, in the vast majority of the cases, discarded them or did not even take them into account.

In nazi's minds a well equipped German soldier had also the upper edge of a superior capability by belonging to a superior race. Let's not forget Hitler had the last word in any type of German course of action during the war. Whoever reported to him things that did not agree with the nazi beliefs could also be accused of being a defeatist.

That meant immediate arrest, trial and a sure death sentence in front of a nazi "War Council", the special courts set up during the war all over Germany and nazi-occupied territories. Not everybody is aware of how many German citizens were sentenced to death from 1938 to 1945 for the silliest reasons. At some point German intelligence agents had to be very careful of what they reported, if they cared for their lives.

This is what means living under a dictatorship, something that the British people probably experienced back in the Cromwell era, but the Americans never did. For as harsh as the British colonial rule must have been in the 18th century, it could never have reached the sheer ferocity and evil of nazi iron fist government.

Thank God Hitler was a total incompetent, while Mussolini was even worst than that, although he was purposely misled about the true Italian military resources in 1940. Again, because fascism could do nothing wrong.

Military Japanese opinion about Westerners and foreign people at large in 1940 is well known. They too believed to be a superior race which could not be defeated by morally and physically inferior opponents.

We all know also that the atrocities which happened during WWII were the direct consequense of this horrible, "ethnic cleansing" way of thinking, which unfortunately keeps surfacing all over the world every so often.

Although I deeply agree that the two main turning points of WWII were the Battle of Britain and Midway, I always thought that if it weren't for Hitler's, Mussolini's and Hideki Tojo's arrogance and incompetence WWII would have never happened.
In the hypothetical case they had not been so arrogant, definitely the war would have taken a very different turn, but it only takes arrogant madmen to start a world war, so the two things go strictly together and here I repeat myself. At any rate, I always thought, and I still do, the end would have been the very same: Germany, Italy and Japan hadn't the industrial power and plenty of raw materials necessary to defeat the rest of the world.

As I said, I am very grateful those fellows were insane and arrogant, because their own insanity proved their undoing and I can't even start imagining a world ruled by nazifascism.

Cheers!
KH :ernae:
 
Looks like I opened a sorta a Can of Worms...or maybe open a window in peoples minds. in that small spot in ones mind.

What if Japan were able to set up a Base in Madagascar....India invaded by Japan and ????
 
India would probably have been a tough place to get a foothold. However mainland Australia being more sparsely populated, and most of that on the Eastern coast......
 
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