Martin P4M-1/1Q Mercator for FS9

[Milton Shupe]

Interesting discussion and aircraft. Is it true and possible that in the real world, there would be absolutely no specular reflection, no sun glare at all?

 

[Mick]

Interesting discussion and aircraft. Is it true and possible that in the real world, there would be absolutely no specular reflection, no sun glare at all?

Of course, but that's not the point at all. Specular reflection and sun glare have an effect on how a color looks in certain lighting, but they don't change the actual color on the plane. They certainly don't make an entire dark blue airplane look entirely medium gray.

This discussion is about the color of paint, not about lighting effects.

There was an actual color Dark Sea Blue. It's characteristics have been preserved and carefully documented, and thanks to Major Elliott's research, that information is readily available. While the color will look slightly different in various lighting situations, and while it will look a bit different on various computer monitors, this differences don't change the fact that there is an actual color. In this case, David's textures do a good job of representing that color. And the color was a deep, dark blue, not a faded, washed out gray.

While there is room for some difference of interpretation in exactly how the color might look in certain lighting, the actual color is a matter of fact, not opinion, and the fact is well documented through research. If someone says that the exact shade of blue should look different, maybe so. If someone says it should look like gray, they are simply wrong. Jack Elliott's research is not just opinion - it is carefully documented fact, based on careful research using original source documentation.

To say that a Dark Sea Blue aircraft should look gray is no more valid than if someone told you that your Stoof should have a rounded fin top. You didn't shape the fin by guesswork or opinion - you went to the available documentation and made the shape of the fin match it. Fact, not opinion. Due to the effects of lighting, weathering and monitor settings, matters of color might not be quite so definitive on a computer model, but they are not wide open to speculation either. The facts have been established. There IS a correct answer to the question. While the color might not be rendered with perfect accuracy on everyone's monitor at all times, it's very possible to get it very close. Rendering Dark Sea Blue as a medium gray is not even close.

Remember, real planes are painted with real paint, which has a real color, and while that color might look a bit different in certain light, it still is a real, actual color. The different lighting and other effects that occur in the real world are replicated, for better or worse, in Flight Simulator. They will have similar effects on what a color looks like in specific lighting situations. In order for those effects to render realistically in FS, so as to replicate those effects as they occur in the real world, it seems clear that one needs to start off with the same color as was applied to the real plane. This is a case where we can establish what that color actually was, so it makes sense to replicate is as best we can on our models.

Would you paint your Stoof pink if someone said they could imagine a circumstance of lighting conditions that might make a real Stoof appear pink? In certain sunset conditions, I can imagine Light Gull Gray taking on a pinkish hue. Do you think that makes it a good idea to actually paint the model pink? Or do you think it's better to paint the plane Light Gull Gray, and let it look pink only in lighting conditions that would make a real Light Gull Gray plane look pink?

I think a gray Mercator makes perfect sense - if you want your model to look like it's been sitting out in the sun for thirty or forty years, like those old hulks I saw at the Museum. But if you want it to look like a real operational Mercator looked in real lighting conditions in the real world, I think it makes sense to paint it Dark Sea Blue, and let FS render the lighting effects (which it usually does pretty well.) And we happen to be fortunate enough to have solid information on what color Dark Sea Blue actually was.

If you don't know for sure, you guess and you fake it. I've done plenty of that in my days as a repainter and texturer. But when you can find facts, I think it makes sense to use that information.

 

[Milton Shupe]

Mick,

I was not questioning the color discussion; I was questioning whether or not the model should have specular lighting added.

 

[lazarus]

The blue angel blue was referenced as way of demonstrating the base tone. To quote from a Tillman monograph(hoping for accuracy,but who can-really say, I'm working with the references at hand....Early on. Yes, now a days its is a custom color. I'd guess a maintainer would now

''1952-1954 F9F-5: The team was reformed with -5s after a hiatus for the Korean War. In this case, there is a credible report on the colors. Bob Moore was an enlisted mechanic on the team who also assisted in painting them:: "The paint used on F9F-5 was nitrate lacquer. We mixed the colors one part insignia white (to) three parts gloss sea blue blue. The yellow was AN Yellow." The FS 595 equivalent of AN Yellow is 13591.''

I remembered the proportions incorrecly.
None of it is finilized. I'll quote my self


''Its still pretty subjective, depending on monitor and graphics card too. So I knocked up a set of textures from Davids original Mercator set, using the IPMS RGB values as a start point, and did each in a slightly different tone or shade to see what a good MEDIAN is'' It depends on the model, too. The wrap sections come out looking lighter than non-wrap sections, despite being the same color on the same sheet.
Scale effect. The same color on a smaller scale representation looks darker than the same paint in real life.

I do think the model would look better with a bit of shine on it.

I did not intend to start a &%$$&%? contest. Ihave all kinds of exact RGB-hex formulae for dark sea blue.Allclaim 100% accuracy. Some times it looks right, some times not. But thank you for the input. I thought the darker tones looked right. Oddly, ON MY MONITOR in the basement, the lighter one looks better TO ME. on the lap top, the screen grabs look different again.
I'll admit, I'm plain selfish. I paint for me. Sorry. And its a project at this point. The final ,if it happens now(the debate rages on) may be something different yet again. Use em or don't. We have, after all, personal choice. Start painting.
None of which detracts from the fact that its a sweet model, and I really like the sound pack.So much so that for the first time I ran the audio through the stereo amp to rattle the rafters and get my wife complaining about the racket!

LLS

 

[Mick]

OK, I didn't mean to start an argument either.

I'll just explain that I was struck by how much your color - on my monitor - reminded me of those hulks I mentioned, and how the color on those hulks had weathered so much that they'd changed into a completely different color than what they were originally. Then my pedantic tendencies kicked in...

My comments weren't about shine, but I completely agree that the plane would look better - and more authentic - with specular shine. The real planes were painted in Glossy Dark Sea Blue, not Non-Specular Dark Sea Blue, and the models should replicate that.

Actually, at the risk of becoming pedantic again, they should be overall Glossy DS Blue with Non-Spec DS Blue anti-glare panels.

Since I still don't have a working installation of "FS1954" on my current, no-longer-new confuter, I wasn't aware that the P4Ms were matte finished. That's why Milton's comment went right over my head.

If I was still painting David's planes I would've arranged for them to have specular shine. I'm still in regular contact with David, and I followed his work on the P4M, so perhaps I owe him an apology for not mentioning this and making sure he shined up the models.

 

[this4dave2]

OK, I didn't mean to start an argument either.

I'll just explain that I was struck by how much your color - on my monitor - reminded me of those hulks I mentioned, and how the color on those hulks had weathered so much that they'd changed into a completely different color than what they were originally. Then my pedantic tendencies kicked in...

My comments weren't about shine, but I completely agree that the plane would look better - and more authentic - with specular shine. The real planes were painted in Glossy Dark Sea Blue, not Non-Specular Dark Sea Blue, and the models should replicate that.

Actually, at the risk of becoming pedantic again, they should be overall Glossy DS Blue with Non-Spec DS Blue anti-glare panels.

Since I still don't have a working installation of "FS1954" on my current, no-longer-new confuter, I wasn't aware that the P4Ms were matte finished. That's why Milton's comment went right over my head.

If I was still painting David's planes I would've arranged for them to have specular shine. I'm still in regular contact with David, and I followed his work on the P4M, so perhaps I owe him an apology for not mentioning this and making sure he shined up the models.

Hi every body:

I am sorry I got this argument started I just thought others might like the choice of a different texture color thats why I asked Lazarus to think about uploading his textures and I thank him for doing so.

The textures do have a glossy shine to them but not the one mentioned because I dont know how to do that.

David Wooster

 

[lazarus]

OK, I didn't mean to start an argument either.

I'll just explain that I was struck by how much your color - on my monitor - reminded me of those hulks I mentioned, and how the color on those hulks had weathered so much that they'd changed into a completely different color than what they were originally. Then my pedantic tendencies kicked in...

My comments weren't about shine, but I completely agree that the plane would look better - and more authentic - with specular shine. The real planes were painted in Glossy Dark Sea Blue, not Non-Specular Dark Sea Blue, and the models should replicate that.

Actually, at the risk of becoming pedantic again, they should be overall Glossy DS Blue with Non-Spec DS Blue anti-glare panels.

Since I still don't have a working installation of "FS1954" on my current, no-longer-new confuter, I wasn't aware that the P4Ms were matte finished. That's why Milton's comment went right over my head.

If I was still painting David's planes I would've arranged for them to have specular shine. I'm still in regular contact with David, and I followed his work on the P4M, so perhaps I owe him an apology for not mentioning this and making sure he shined up the models.

Fair enough. I should also never post before the first pot of coffee kicks in, as I seem to be a grumpy old fart in the mornings (Really. Just in the MORNING??)
The whole color thing is intensely subjective. Time, weather, observer, paint manufacturer,light...arrrgggh! To digress for a moment to the blue angel blue, I have found records that state, according to year, specific aircraft swap outs, whim, ect, that give paint mixes using roughly 3/4-1/4 insignia white mixed with insignia blue, dark sea blue, medium blue, a can of pre war blue used in tail stripes,a Chrysler blue that came from an autoparts store....and on and on. I've seen parts that were zero timed at various NARFs and manufacturers plants,come out of the box painted to the same spec, with obstinantly the same spec paint, diverge dramaticly in hue, tone and shade depending on paint type, reducer type, heat, humidity, primer color, the painters 'fist' :isadizzy: Madness, and a job for the 'experts' to argue about. I just like blue airplanes.
The records I have on hand -Ginter, NAVAIR specs, and waay back issues of airclassics and whatnot, indicate that the 2 XP4Ms were finished in a matt paint work, the production aircraft were shot in gloss, though, nasty scale effect again, a reduced shine seems to look better. If(?) I can get to grips with mdlmatt, I'll see what can be done. The funny thing here is, that to me, the damn color looks like it has a hint of purple or violet I can't seem to get rid of! Compromises! Damn compromises!
And last; Heck, this was a civilized discussion about paint and color. You should see some of the flame wars, fist fights and near riots that break out when Lufftwaffe and Wehrmacht modelers start arguing color and paint!
over and out!:salute:

 

[Mick]

Glossy models

A little birdie tells me that there will be a fix released tomorrow that will provide the properly glossy models for the -1 and the later paints of the -1Q, leaving the existing matte -1Q model for the earlier paints.

If you look in the aircraft folder you'll see that there are three model folders: model.1, model.f and model.Q. The model.1 is the straight -1 and was intended to be glossy. The model.Q is the -1Q and was also intended to be glossy. The model.f is the -1Q with a flat finish (f for flat) for use with the two early -1Q planes, which were painted in a non-standard flat finish.

The aircraft.cfg file is already set up to link the proper models with the proper paints.

Apparently, somewhere late in the production process, when some last minute mods were made, the glossy models were accidentally changed to matte. So the little birdie tells me, anyway...

I wasn't going to mention this, since it's not my model, but I thought I should say something in order to save lazarus and anyone else from doing unnecessary work.

Personally, I'm retired from FS development, but that little birdie keeps coming around and telling me stuff.

 

[Blackbird686]

Personally, I'm retired from FS development, but that little birdie keeps coming around and telling me stuff.

It get's into your blood, Mick, then the little birdie just comes around and re-antaganises the "itch"...

BB686:USA-flag:

 

[Mick]

Yeah, something like that.

The lasting friendship David and I formed through several years of working together is part of it, too.

I expect that some day I'll get around to setting up FS9 in my current computer, but I don't expect to get back into FS development. A certain interest remains, but I came to really loathe doing the work, which is why I don't do it anymore. If/when I get FS functioning in my present system, I expect to spend my limited hobby time flying, not developing.

 

[TARPSBird]

And last; Heck, this was a civilized discussion about paint and color. You should see some of the flame wars, fist fights and near riots that break out when Lufftwaffe and Wehrmacht modelers start arguing color and paint!

You are right there, Laz. Paint and color discussions really bring out the "ultra-geek" in airplane/armor/railroad modelers and fans. When I first visited the J-Aircraft.com site I was amazed at all the lengthy debate over the "ame-iro" (light brown/caramel) color used on early WWII Japanese Zeros. Everybody had an opinion - you'd think they all worked in the paint shop at Mitsubishi.

 

[lazarus]

You are right there, Laz. Paint and color discussions really bring out the "ultra-geek" in airplane/armor/railroad modelers and fans. When I first visited the J-Aircraft.com site I was amazed at all the lengthy debate over the "ame-iro" (light brown/caramel) color used on early WWII Japanese Zeros. Everybody had an opinion - you'd think they all worked in the paint shop at Mitsubishi.

I always shook my head in amazement at the luftwaffe/wehrmacht color fight, pointless as the camouflage was shipped as a concentrate and field applied in every manner imaginable after being mixed in whatever ratio the guy with the bucket thought appropriate and thinned with anything from petrol to vin ordinare! I made the same mistake with spray bombs of aircraft zinc chromate, thinking, Aha! That solves the zinc chromate color debate! It IS aircraft zinc chromate, after all. And when applied on a model, its NATO camouflage green! Which solved the NATO vehicle color problem...

 

[SSI01]

If you guys are researching military colors, try duplicating this one:

British tanks and vehicles arriving in North Africa in WWII had European camouflage on them, and the British 8th Army desperately needed them desert camouflaged upon arrival. No one could seem to duplicate the proper shade of "sand" to match as closely as possible the color of the actual North African sand. In addition, there was a shortage of the proper base color from which to make the right shade. FM Montgomery had at his disposal the services of Jasper Maskelyne, the famous British magician from the pre-WWII London entertainment circuit, who had been made a major in the Army and placed in charge of camouflage and deception measures for the 8th Army. Maskelyne and his crew looked hard for anything that was available in suitable quantities that could be converted to an easily-applied paint for the vehicles. They discovered camel dung, when thinned with a liquid (I forget what it was) could be air-sprayed or applied by brush on the vehicles as needed and when properly proportioned matched exactly the color of the sand. The desert for many miles around Alexandria and Cairo was scoured for this substance.

This story is in the book "The War Magician," that documents Maskelyne's work within the British war effort.

Is there a FS color for camel dung?

 

[lazarus]

So thats the origin of the $#!tty paint job!
Too funny. I always knew that the kippers had a scatological sense of humour, but that goes to a whole new level!

 

[Mick]

David told me yesterday that he uploaded the glossy models here and at FlightSim. I thought he said he was going to mention it here in this thread; I don't know why he hasn't. I just checked and the update wasn't on the download list here yet, and FlightSim hadn't yet updated their list for today. I'd suppose that we'll see the update both here and on FlightSim before today is out. The fix might be available by the time you read this.

 

[this4dave2]

P4M shine fix

I made a new post for it in the warbirds and 2004 forms.

it was availible yesterday here and to date it has had only 1 hit and viewed 140 times between both forms so I guess people are finding it

David

 

[Milton Shupe]

Thanks David; I got my copy I must have been the first one. Now there are 224 downloads.

 

[Blackbird686]

Now there are 224 downloads.

And still number 1 on the new files list.... The "Merc" is definately a winner!! :salute:


BB686:USA-flag:

 

[lazarus]

A winner and a blast to roar around in. What a pretty airplane. Slowly refining some paint work. Panel lines are workable in some places, but I think I'm going to try something more subtle with tones and shades. Anti glare panel on, some stencils, changed the exhaust swatch to a toasted inconel color and I think I've got the color worked out . The shined model doesn't seem to do much in FSX, but Its not an FSX model, so I'll not worry, this does not detract from enjoyment of the model. More latter!

 

[Mick]

I made a new post for it in the warbirds and 2004 forms.

it was availible yesterday here and to date it has had only 1 hit and viewed 140 times between both forms so I guess people are finding it

David

Now it's got hundreds of hits here, plus however many more at FlightSim, so they're finding it alright!
David, you've really outdone yourself with this one! :ernae: