• There seems to be an uptick in Political comments in recent months. Those of us who are long time members of the site know that Political and Religious content has been banned for years. Nothing has changed. Please leave all political and religious comments out of the forums.

    If you recently joined the forums you were not presented with this restriction in the terms of service. This was due to a conversion error when we went from vBulletin to Xenforo. We have updated our terms of service to reflect these corrections.

    Please note any post refering to a politician will be considered political even if it is intended to be humor. Our experience is these topics have a way of dividing the forums and causing deep resentment among members. It is a poison to the community. We appreciate compliance with the rules.

    The Staff of SOH

  • Server side Maintenance is done. We still have an update to the forum software to run but that one will have to wait for a better time.

Mosquito Turning Radius

lewis11777

lewis11777

Charter Member
"Aces High" at the link below shows a Mosquito as having a better turning radius than a Fw 190a-5. From several things I have read about the Mosquito's performance it sounds like the Mosquito had poor turning performance. Some stories say thats why it was relegated to roles other than day intercept missions. Is the performance data reflected by "Aces High" accurate or is there information to the contrary?

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
 
No need to look too far

Just look at their name Aces High ... must be smoking something good .....:icon_lol:
 
Near as I can see, they're measuring performance in the game as opposed to real world.

Their versions of the aircraft are not, perhaps, as well crafted as those we fly.
 
KellyB said:
Near as I can see, they're measuring performance in the game as opposed to real world.

Their versions of the aircraft are not, perhaps, as well crafted as those we fly.
Click to expand...

Sounds like it but some of the CFS3 stock FM's are inaccurate as well. The stock fw 190a-5 has one of the worst turning capabilities in the game. In reality it could out turn all of it's american counter parts and some of the spits. I think the Avhistory FM was more realistic.
 
I should probably add that much of their data on other fighters reflects information close to what I've read on the internet. Sorting through actual performance information and erroneous claims can blur the facts a little. I think Aces High accurately shows the P-51's and P-47's as having a worse turning radius than most variants of the 109's and 190's. The 109's and Spits are measured as the best pure dog fighters which seems to be consistent with most published literature. I raised the question about the Mosquito because AH data did not match most reports of actual performance.
 
lewis11777 said:
Sounds like it but some of the CFS3 stock FM's are inaccurate as well. The stock fw 190a-5 has one of the worst turning capabilities in the game. In reality it could out turn all of it's american counter parts and some of the spits. I think the Avhistory FM was more realistic.
Click to expand...

"Out-turn" is not exactly the correct term when it comes to Spit v. Fw190.
All Spits had a better horizontal turn rate than the Fw190 but the Fw190 was lightyears ahead in terms of rollrate and allover manoverability, and it got even worse for the Spit at higher speeds - all Marks.
Like one Spit Jockey once said "at higher speed the sky wasn't enough to roll the Spitfire", whereas the Fw190 remained manovreable around all axes even in high speed dives.
 
You're right Matthias there were several important maneuvering aspects of dog fighting. However when comparisons arise pilots always seemed to put a lot of emphasis on turning ability as a critical factor. Likewise the most highly rated of the pure dog fighters are typically planes with excellent turning ability. The Mustang was considered to be one of the better overall performers yet it is perceived as 2nd best to Spits, 109's and 190 because it could not turn as tightly. I think it would have been viewed as the Spitfires equal if it simply had better turning performance.
 
Fast rollrate means you can quickly change the direction of flight. That together with the light and precise controlls at any speed made the Fw190 the superior dogfighter over the Spitfire (again, any Mark, not just up to V). The Fw190 Jockey would just go into the vertical when the Spit driver turns horizontally. The Spit driver would rip his arms off if he'd try to follow.
Eithehrway, not many aircraft where lost in a classics dogfight situation, most didn't even know they had an opponent on their tail before they got shot down.
 
True, from what I have read, the Fw 190 was a very dangerous machine..
Galland recommended to stop all other fighter production and only build the Fw 190 in late 42..
Pity none of the flight models we have for the Fw 190 really show how Great a enemy aircraft they were..

The Spit was a okay bird not great but okay..Had some good points, it was outclassed later in the war by newer designs..
Fw 190D and P-51's come to mind..
 
Dogfighters

One must remember that toward the end of 1943 and onwards the Germans suffered not from poor machines or demonstrably better allied planes, but rather from the fact that they had some of the poorest trained pilots in the war. The attrition rate was something that the Germans could not address. The allies on the other hand were able to rotate out their pilots, offer more training, and just had the advantage in pure numbers.
 
HouseHobbit said:
The Spit was a okay bird not great but okay..Had some good points, it was outclassed later in the war by newer designs..
Fw 190D and P-51's come to mind..
Click to expand...
Being outclassed depends heavily on which versions are compared, usually people pit Spitfire V against Fw 190A and Spitfire IX against Fw 190D and then note that the Spitfires are outclassed. How about contemporary groupings like these...

1941: Spitfire V vs. Fw 190 vs. P-51 - oh bugger, neither of the latter two were in service by the time the Spitfire came into use.

1942: Spitfire IX vs. Fw 190A-3 vs. P-51A - maximum speed, climb rate and turning rate go to the Spitfire, roll rate goes to the Fw 190 and range goes to the P-51.

1944: Spitfire XIV vs. Fw 190D-9 vs. P-51D - see the 1942 situation.

I'm not saying that Fw 190s and P-51s weren't great fighters but they certainly didn't outclass the Spitfire unless my idea of outclassing is very different from everyone else's. It's like implying the P-40C outclassed the Zero, its advantages were pretty much the same as those of a Fw 190 over a contemporary Spitfire.
 
Regarding tthe Mosquito, some tests were made (2 or 3) against a P61 Black Widdow and each time, the Black Widdow won.
 
Where

Led Zeppelin said:
Regarding tthe Mosquito, some tests were made (2 or 3) against a P61 Black Widdow and each time, the Black Widdow won.
Click to expand...

Where are these? I read that the p-61 was inferior to the mossie as a night interceptor and that because of the numbers available, the p61 was adopted for use by the Americans, although tests showed it to be slower, have inferior climb, range, and overall maneuverability. I'll search for these later today.

see this: http://www.ww2f.com/aircraft/33888-best-nightfighters-wwii.html

and: http://combatace.com/topic/65251-ww2-cannons/

Clearly, the p61 while interesting, was not superior and in reality not equal. Heck, the JU88G models could go over 400 with FuG 220, imagine euipped with Berlin 240 as they were toward the end of the war, this would add 20-30 kph getting them very close to the mossie (424 mossie vs 418 Ju88Gs). The radar was great, but both the mossie and widow used the same one.
 
HouseHobbit said:
True, from what I have read, the Fw 190 was a very dangerous machine.. Galland recommended to stop all other fighter production and only build the Fw 190 in late 42.. Pity none of the flight models we have for the Fw 190 really show how Great a enemy aircraft they were.. The Spit was a okay bird not great but okay..Had some good points, it was outclassed later in the war by newer designs.. Fw 190D and P-51's come to mind..
Click to expand...

Owen I would have to say that the records support Rene's statement. In a match up as we are speaking about the Spitfire was typically hailed as the best allied dog fighter in the ETO. The dog fighting reputation given to the P-51 was mostly from combat against less experienced pilots who were at a great disadvantage. Also you can't dismiss the performance data that reflects the clear advantage of Spits, 190's and 109's given equal pilots. The P-51 however did an excellent job as the multi mission platform for which it was designed. It still carries the well deserved reputation of best all around intercepter, bomber escort, ground attack aircraft. The historical record in downed aircraft and destroyed enemy hardware supports this fact as well.
 
lewis11777 said:
Owen I would have to say that the records support Rene's statement. In a match up as we are speaking about the Spitfire was typically hailed as the best allied dog fighter in the ETO. The dog fighting reputation given to the P-51 was mostly from combat against less experienced pilots who were at a great disadvantage. Also you can't dismiss the performance data that reflects the clear advantage of Spits, 190's and 109's given equal pilots. The P-51 however did an excellent job as the multi mission platform for which it was designed. It still carries the well deserved reputation of best all around intercepter, bomber escort, ground attack aircraft. The historical record in downed aircraft and destroyed enemy hardware supports this fact as well.
Click to expand...

BRAVO, I will have to retract that statement, you are correct..
Thanks..
:salute: :salute: :salute:
 
lewis11777 said:
The P-51 however did an excellent job as the multi mission platform for which it was designed. It still carries the well deserved reputation of best all around intercepter, bomber escort, ground attack aircraft.
Click to expand...

In the ETO, I might add to that. Few people realize that there's an aircraft that was actually faster and climbed just as well if not better than the P-51, flew every bit as far if necessary (some seriously large drop tanks) and was more manoeuvrable at high speeds. It's just that it never gets the attention it deserves because it fought the relatively unknown war against the remains of the Japanese empire - the fearsome F4U.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top