Hmm, don't confuse newspaper propaganda claims with actual records and claiming/verification procedures, two different things.
It's true for both sides that the back then publically claimed numbers are nowhere near accurate.
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The Staff of SOH
Most over rated plane of World War II?
- Thread starter Cowboy1968
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Hmm, don't confuse newspaper propaganda claims with actual records and claiming/verification procedures, two different things.
It's true for both sides that the back then publically claimed numbers are nowhere near accurate.
peperez
Charter Member
I would have to say the Breda Ba.88 was the most over-rated airplane of WW2. Why? Calling it an airplane is over-rating this beast by a long shot!
After a few extremely unsuccessful missions it was used as a decoy ground target by the Italians . . . .
Probably, you are right!
Pepe
Now you're saying the Luftwaffe claimed 30.000 Il-2 during the battle of Berlin? :friday:
Now that's what I call propaganda!
:costumes:
I love discussions like this. All aircraft come off the drawing board designed for conditions that existed yesterday. When they enter service, they are often used in conditions or situations the designer never envisioned for the machine. The MiG-21 is an example. It got a bad rep in Vietnam not because it was a bad aircraft, but the version used there was designed as a cheap point defence interceptor not as a dogfighter. Later designs tried to remedy this, but it was still a system designed to be built in huge numbers cheaply. Send up waves to intercept incoming bombers. If one gets shot down, pilot bails, lands and hops into another......
bismarck13
I Make 'em U break 'em
Pepe . . .
Pepe . . . I will have a present for you soon. Remember that book you sent me ages ago? Anyway, I am forced to work a lot slower than in the old days since I got married this summer . . . .
:argue:
Some wive's just don't understand about things like Flight Sims . . . .
:typing:
Pepe . . . I will have a present for you soon. Remember that book you sent me ages ago? Anyway, I am forced to work a lot slower than in the old days since I got married this summer . . . .
:argue:
Some wive's just don't understand about things like Flight Sims . . . .
:typing:
aeronca1: "I love discussions like this. All aircraft come off the drawing board designed for conditions that existed yesterday. When they enter service, they are often used in conditions or situations the designer never envisioned for the machine. The MiG-21 is an example. It got a bad rep in Vietnam not because it was a bad aircraft, but the version used there was designed as a cheap point defence interceptor not as a dogfighter. Later designs tried to remedy this, but it was still a system designed to be built in huge numbers cheaply. Send up waves to intercept incoming bombers. If one gets shot down, pilot bails, lands and hops into another...... "
:amen: These are factors we must always keep in mind when evaluating A/C. If i'm not mistaken the P-51 was ORIGINALLY designed as a dive-bomber.
:amen: These are factors we must always keep in mind when evaluating A/C. If i'm not mistaken the P-51 was ORIGINALLY designed as a dive-bomber.
miamieagle
Charter Member
Mathias you are confusing your nationalizim with historical facts. The facts is the Herman Goring and the Nazi party where base on Lies and Myth. The truth was not very much emphasis in those days. You said don't confuse newspaper propaganda claims with actual records and claiming/verification procedures. The reality was that they where both the same as long as they serve the same purpose. Propaganda to inspire the populance to fight on.
Do you really want me to believe that Hartman shot down over 350 enemy plane at the End of the war when the ally piltols where improving in little more than a year and a half. Thats almost one plane shot down every two days. Thats absurb.
That he was a fantastic fighter pilot is without a doubt. That he shot down 350 planes is simply not true. Perhaps 150 but not 350. On paper the Japanese Arm Forces like the Luwftwaffe had a very orginize well plan Military organization.
In vivo they lacked the proper concern for the well beign of the Average Japanese Soldier. They suffer for it throughout the war. They never where properly supply or taken care of by their Military Forces.
The same thing happen to the Luftwaffe through the war. On paper they had a well organize and strick system of counting kills. The reality of the war says other wise.
That also happen to our Airfiorce. U.S.A. Historical record indicate that over 7,000 Japanese planes where destroy during the Okinawa campapaign. If that would have been true the Japanese would not of had over 8,000 left to defend Japan from a Invation at the End of the war.
You are confusing the Germany of today with the Nazi Germany. Its like you are talking of two different countries. The Germany of today is a Democratic decent country with great Human values. The Germany of the Nazi Era was totaly the opposite.
Lets try to be objective in this Historical discusion and not let our pasion overide our intelect.
Have a good day my friend!
Do you really want me to believe that Hartman shot down over 350 enemy plane at the End of the war when the ally piltols where improving in little more than a year and a half. Thats almost one plane shot down every two days. Thats absurb.
That he was a fantastic fighter pilot is without a doubt. That he shot down 350 planes is simply not true. Perhaps 150 but not 350. On paper the Japanese Arm Forces like the Luwftwaffe had a very orginize well plan Military organization.
In vivo they lacked the proper concern for the well beign of the Average Japanese Soldier. They suffer for it throughout the war. They never where properly supply or taken care of by their Military Forces.
The same thing happen to the Luftwaffe through the war. On paper they had a well organize and strick system of counting kills. The reality of the war says other wise.
That also happen to our Airfiorce. U.S.A. Historical record indicate that over 7,000 Japanese planes where destroy during the Okinawa campapaign. If that would have been true the Japanese would not of had over 8,000 left to defend Japan from a Invation at the End of the war.
You are confusing the Germany of today with the Nazi Germany. Its like you are talking of two different countries. The Germany of today is a Democratic decent country with great Human values. The Germany of the Nazi Era was totaly the opposite.
Lets try to be objective in this Historical discusion and not let our pasion overide our intelect.
Have a good day my friend!
Sorry MM, get your head out of your arse!
I don't care at all for nationalistic crap, patriotism is a term that's highly suspect to me as a humanist.
Accusing me of nationalism is like blaming mother Theresa for blasphemy you know.
It's just that you and Pepe make claims here in extreme contrast to what the historians say. I think the nationalists BS is on your part since you can't believe that the loser pilots claim more than the winner pilots.
peperez
Charter Member
Now you're saying the Luftwaffe claimed 30.000 Il-2 during the battle of Berlin? :friday:
Now that's what I call propaganda!
No. German, Finn, Romanian, Magyar pilots AND ack ack crews at WW2 claims to shoot down almost ALL Il-2 production at all the conflict, around 30,000 planes, but the Soviet put more than 2,500 Il-2 at the Battle for Berlin. This didn't included planes that were used at other front against German and SS foreign troops. Over Manchuria, 1,500 Il-2 were used to sweep Japanese opposition. If you join landing and training accidents you'll got around 20,000 Il-2 losses at all WW2. Around 30,000 it is clearly an over-claiming.
The biggest problem with German pilots claims at WW2 is that it is contaminated by nazi propaganda. Some officers, like Marseille, were iconic at Signaal. We must recognize that the biggest over-claim was over the East Front, where it was most difficult to check the victory tall. It is the same with Stuka pilots. If we believe in Rudell and other aces, almost all T-34 production were swept by the German.
But I must concede something: every fighter pilot, and I know a lot of them, is a potential liar. Is a common trace with fishermen...
Pepe
peperez
Charter Member
The MiG21 is a hell of a dogfighter. Pakistani pilots, that flew the Chinese version of it, love them and got a lot of victories in dissimilar combat against F-16A. The Chengdu F-7M was evaluated by the Brazilian Air Force in 1987, the same year I visited a lot of aircraft factories on China, and the pilots love it! By the way, they have a F-16A at one of their hangars.
Cheers
Pepe
peperez
Charter Member
I know that. I finished FOUR projects since my girfriend goes to Salvador, Bahia, to visit her parents.
Nobody is perfect... It's the RED book or the one about croissants?
Cheers
Pepe
peperez
Charter Member
Mathias you are confusing your nationalizim with historical facts. The facts is the Herman Goring and the Nazi party where base on Lies and Myth. The truth was not very much emphasis in those days. You said don't confuse newspaper propaganda claims with actual records and claiming/verification procedures. The reality was that they where both the same as long as they serve the same purpose. Propaganda to inspire the populance to fight on.
Do you really want me to believe that Hartman shot down over 350 enemy plane at the End of the war when the ally piltols where improving in little more than a year and a half. Thats almost one plane shot down every two days. Thats absurb.
That he was a fantastic fighter pilot is without a doubt. That he shot down 350 planes is simply not true. Perhaps 150 but not 350. On paper the Japanese Arm Forces like the Luwftwaffe had a very orginize well plan Military organization.
In vivo they lacked the proper concern for the well beign of the Average Japanese Soldier. They suffer for it throughout the war. They never where properly supply or taken care of by their Military Forces.
The same thing happen to the Luftwaffe through the war. On paper they had a well organize and strick system of counting kills. The reality of the war says other wise.
That also happen to our Airfiorce. U.S.A. Historical record indicate that over 7,000 Japanese planes where destroy during the Okinawa campapaign. If that would have been true the Japanese would not of had over 8,000 left to defend Japan from a Invation at the End of the war.
You are confusing the Germany of today with the Nazi Germany. Its like you are talking of two different countries. The Germany of today is a Democratic decent country with great Human values. The Germany of the Nazi Era was totaly the opposite.
Lets try to be objective in this Historical discusion and not let our pasion overide our intelect.
Have a good day my friend!
Germany, today, is a collection of the best teutonic cultural and humanistic values.
Pepe
R
R C CAWTE
Guest
Looks like its time to close this thread Rami.Its turning into:bs:
Ah ok, now I get your 30.000 vs 2500 drift, just not sure where the 30.000 figure comes from.
Well, as for Marseille and other aces, they sure got their credits much faster than the average pilot who's been waiting at times more than a year to receive confirmation. Also some of his kills where probably done by wingmen but credited to him for propaganda reasons.
Whatever, we're somewhere in the range of 10-15 kills in the case of Marseille according to the historians and not at a 300% overclaiming.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Brits opened their archives just around millenium (what's left of them) and much information just hasn't surfaced yet, on the other hand the lack of those data is happily used by the deniers to proof that the German pilots cheated.
Many British and South-African squad records have been entirely lost during the desert war, British military burocracy made a major clean-up to their records right at war's end so comparing claims vs written "yet surfaced" losses is a starting point for research at best. There's multitudes of hobby historians with an attitude, particularly on the internet, who take those few documented numbers as a proof for their case , but that really can't be considered a serious efford on the matter.
As a matter of fact there is currently no reliable empiric loss vs claims record available. There's however a few books around published post 2000 dealing with the matter on a per "sandbox" or per aircraft base (Nachtjagd War Diaries by Teo Boiten, Fw190 in North Africa by Andrew Arthy and Morten Jessen for instance) who come to the conclusion that the German numbers are pretty close.
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