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Moving Ships - what's the big deal

fsafranek

fsafranek

SOH-CM-2024
A sudden interest in carrier landing has me wondering a few of things.

1) How important are moving ships? And in particular aircraft carriers?

2) If they are moving how can you navigate to them and find them in the fog? Aren't the navaids at a fixed location?

3) Since FSX Acceleration includes the ability to launch and trap (I think) are the third party programs that make this possible necessary?

There are many things that are possible in FSX that seem to be "expected" these days. Is moving ships one of those "must haves" or is/was this just a passing fad?

Just curious.
:ernae:
 
fsafranek said:
A sudden interest in carrier landing has me wondering a few of things.

1) How important are moving ships? And in particular aircraft carriers?

2) If they are moving how can you navigate to them and find them in the fog? Aren't the navaids at a fixed location?

3) Since FSX Acceleration includes the ability to launch and trap (I think) are the third party programs that make this possible necessary?

There are many things that are possible in FSX that seem to be "expected" these days. Is moving ships one of those "must haves" or is/was this just a passing fad?

Just curious.
:ernae:
Click to expand...

1. How important is icing to a cake? :)

2. Not sure, I think you can hard code some nav aids to a vessel, but, vessels do not roam freely, they follow a given track and time scale, once you know that all you need do is follow said track and arrive at said location at said time.

3. Technically no, Acceleration is all you need to replicate carrier operations, and a corresponding coded aircraft, launch bar being a requirement, if carrier and aircraft are not compiled to Acceleration SDK then 3rd party programs will/may be required.

Best

Michael
 
Two weeks ago I started a thread here where I asked about getting started in FSX carrier ops. Got a lot of suggestions and help (all of which was much appreciated), but the FSX Acceleration carrier features still remain a mystery to me. They may even be a mystery to Microsoft. The FSX SDK makes no mention of how it works, in fact the aircraft.cfg info section doesn't even list details of the [tailhook] or [launch_assistance] line entries. I've yet to even attempt to set up AI carrier traffic .bgl files. I know that subject is covered in the SDK but the procedures are pretty involved. Somebody came up with a clever program to set up FSX boat traffic but now it's not available for download. The moving carriers are a nice feature, but I would have still been happy with FSX if it had kept the FS9 limitation of static carriers requiring the use of the RCBCO gauges, or Rich Hogen's Arrestor Cables program to launch and recover.
 
You can still use Rich Hogan's Arrestor Cables 2.6 with Acceleration, I use it all the time for aircraft that don't have a tailhook or launch bar section in the aircraft.cfg.

Even works with the moving carriers too.
 
Hi!

I'll try to add some elements to what Michael said.

1) Why moving boats are important? Because trying to land on a fixed platform is something, but on a moving one is something completely different... I'm speaking about planes and helicopters too!! To my own opinion, FS naval operations takes its whole meaning with moving ships...

2) That's a good point: FS nav aids are thought only with fixed geo-coords. But Jivko Rusev came and switch the light on with his great gauges. So far, the FSX/Acc F18 and Dino's T45C are equiped with a Tacan-like system that allows you to navigate forward some moving Carriers. Jivko allowed me (thanks again!!) to integrate his code into our RFN's productions, so Etendard and Zephyr have moving carrier Tacan feature too!

But be aware that it is not a feature added to ships, it is a AI traffic functionalities added to the navy plane...

3) Michael has fully answered, any plane with defined launchbar and tailhook (defined in the aircraft.cfg or hardcoded into its mdl file) can use Acceleration feature for catapult launch or trap...


Last, AI Boat Traffic Compille, is THE tool that allows you to make bgl files for moving ships is available here: http://lc0277.gratisim.fr/boat/

I hope it will help you ,
Regards,
S.
 
I strongly recommend using the RCBCO 3.0 for FSX gauges. They work well for both fixed and moving carriers. You need not set any coordinates for the cat/trap zones anymore which were needed in FS9. For the relatively few carrier aircraft you use you just make some simple changes to the panel.cfg once and you are done.
 
Frank, I owe a few favs, send me a google earth kml of a location where you want a carrier and the carrier of your choice, and i will knock something up for you '

so you can have a play


i love them, ships or carriers , its just gives you something more to play with, being rotor head trying to land on the back of a moving ship adds a bit more of a challenge than landing on a H at an airfield
 
I will answer the question of why having moving ships is so important (especially for carriers!). Cause in real life you would almost never see a static recovery unless you are talking about helicopters maybe. The ship is constantly moving and turning to the wind, and trying to keep at least 20-25kts of wind flowing over the deck to help the jets get enough lift for takeoff. Also to give them a little extra speed for landing as well. Without the carriers ability to move you would have to increase the cat shot speed, and somehow decrease their landing speed in order to use the equipment within its designed limits. Now in FSX none of that really matters, but it certaintly helps with the experience of feeling like you accomplished something. Plus landing on a moving one is harder than you know what.
 
It's my opinion that for the average joe, Carrier Ops is somewhat a mystery. Just read the posts above and see that it isn't a "one-size-fits-all" operation. There is a myriad of addon gauges, addon vessels and so on to help get you on the carrier deck but unless you are really "into" Carrier Ops, they aren't just sitting there waiting for you to do a circuit and perform a trap. You have to either ask for assistance in here (best option) or start looking through the major download sites and figure out on your own what you need and what you don't need.

As far as moving Carriers is concerned, I can see where that would be pretty interesting once you've mastered the basics and I emphasize "mastered". Nothing more frustrating than missing a trap doing a go-round and by the time you figure out where the Carrier should have been, it's gone, especially in weather. I'm not just blown away by moving carriers because I might get into Carrier Ops about 2 or three times a year for about a week stretch and then it get's boring and I go on to something else.

On Fixed navaids. . . .in FS9 wasn't it possible to "see" the carriers on GPS or radar as AI or at least view the ILS Approach cone? I have yet to be able to spot a Carrier that way in FSX. They are invisible (via GPS or Radar) until you "visually" acquire them (if that made any sense). I can see where moving Carriers would make that impossible, but for static, seems like it would be the same as any other airport that's visible on a map.
 
sparouty said:
Hi!

-SNIP-

Last, AI Boat Traffic Compille, is THE tool that allows you to make bgl files for moving ships is available here: http://lc0277.gratisim.fr/boat/

I hope it will help you ,
Regards,
S.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the new link! The old one I had bookmarked for that utility no longer works.

And I highly reccomend that anyone interested in using moving carriers download
and get familiar with this utility. It is, by far, the easiest way to insert moving ship
traffic ( not just carriers ) into your environment and have them there all the time,
sailing routes that you lay down using Google Earth and following sailing schedules
that you produce. A big THANKS! to Lamont Clark who created this utility and is also
the author of the aicarriers2 program.

When using these carriers you can create saved flights that start on the deck of
those ships.

Trying to use the FSX SDK AI utility to create ship traffic is, at best, a huge exercise
in frustration. It is NOT "user friendly"!!!

Paul
 
On Fixed navaids. . . .in FS9 wasn't it possible to "see" the carriers on GPS or radar as AI or at least view the ILS Approach cone? I have yet to be able to spot a Carrier that way in FSX. They are invisible (via GPS or Radar) until you "visually" acquire them (if that made any sense). I can see where moving Carriers would make that impossible, but for static, seems like it would be the same as any other airport that's visible on a map.
Click to expand...
Technically no, what you were seeing was the facility information for a small airfield that happened to be co-located with a model of a ship. You can do the same in FSX for a static carrier if you want but I don't think many (any?) one is making static carriers for FSX.As mentioned there are ways to emulate carrier nav aids but it’s on an individual aircraft basis.To be honest if you’re not massively into carrier ops the easiest thing to do is get Acceleration which provides an out of the box experience rather than faffing around with multiple add-ons. Personally I like the challenge of landing on a moving ship, plus with AI Carriers you can put them anywhere rather than being limited to where the static model happens to be.
 
SkippyBing said:
. . . . . .To be honest if you’re not massively into carrier ops the easiest thing to do is get Acceleration which provides an out of the box experience rather than faffing around with multiple add-ons. . . . . .
Click to expand...
Yea, I'm not into Carrier Ops as a daily routine and I do have Accel but I don't care for the F-18 all that much any more. . . .I think I got burned out on it after it being my primary ride in FS9 for a long time (I flew Dean Reimers creations exclusively). Consequently I went looking for other Carrier Aircraft, most of which were FS9 portovers and so required all the addons to function.
 
fsafranek said:
1) How important are moving ships? And in particular aircraft carriers?
Click to expand...

My "ships" slider is at 15 or 20% and number of my carrier traps in FSX are zero, so go figure.

2) If they are moving how can you navigate to them and find them in the fog? Aren't the navaids at a fixed location?
Click to expand...

I *think* one can add NDBs or something to a carrier, but don't quote me on that.

3) Since FSX Acceleration includes the ability to launch and trap (I think) are the third party programs that make this possible necessary?
Click to expand...

For those who don't have Acceleration, but enjoy a very occasional trap: Definately.

Is moving ships one of those "must haves" or is/was this just a passing fad?
Click to expand...

I want moving trains.
 
I have found that the edit to put a hook and spools on aircraft is dead easy, 2 lines in the config file to define hook and cat arm positions. FS9 ports FSX native, whatever- I ususally lift the lines from another model. I also have a page of hook and spool definitions somebody wrote up years ago to make aircraft FSX-A compatable. No adding gauges, though rcbo is an easy edit as well. I still use rcbo for catapaulting floatplanes. Moving ships- the best thing about FSX! With all the freeware ships available now, the only default boats left in my install are small boats. With multiple manual start of AI Carriers, and the FTB RADAR gauge from Brian's Nimrod-which shows AI Ships bearing, range and speed- one can recreate some fairly involved naval actions- I've fleets and formations set up for Samar Gulf- up to 8 AI carrier windows open, fleets of ships maneouvering independantly, and a fast carrier task force of 5-6 CV's and CVL's with cans, cruisers battleships, and fleet train, steaming at flank, 50-60 ships as far as the eye can see in any direction. One can also use AI formation from a carrier deck to Put up a CAP or strike, Much more limited in that the aircraft run in a fixed box or straight line, but if you run the carrier in the same box to stay under your CAP, its mighty cool to launch while the rest of the section roars overhead. Then theres the Sci-fi stuff. Gimme a Viper and call me Jolly!
So, yeah, I like the Icing!
 
TARPSBird said:
Two weeks ago I started a thread here where I asked about getting started in FSX carrier ops. Got a lot of suggestions and help (all of which was much appreciated), but the FSX Acceleration carrier features still remain a mystery to me. They may even be a mystery to Microsoft. The FSX SDK makes no mention of how it works, in fact the aircraft.cfg info section doesn't even list details of the [tailhook] or [launch_assistance] line entries. ......
Click to expand...

A couple of months after Acceleration was released (nov 2007 or thereabouts) one of the FSX developers made a brief statement ----on his own personal blog website-----that the Accel SDK did lack carrier information and that he plus one or two others would write the missing info.
As far as I know nothing was written. Three and one-half years later no info released.
Progress has been made without the info.

Today there are many aircraft, freeware and payware, for carriers. It is always being improved.

http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/board,4.0.html
This site concerns the default Hornet. It also concerns the improvements made by the "sludge" team to the Hornet (version 1.2 is current while version 1.3 is close to release). These are basically former carrier pilots trying to improve the Hornet --- and some of this to freeware aircraft such as Dino's F-14D and T-45C. It's some deep reading and a bit of a learning curve if you will try. All free.

Offered in the hope readers will be helped. :icon29::guinness:
 
Hi!
You're right wilycoyote4 some info has posted in parallel of the offical FSX SDK to complete it on the nvaops feature.
One of these blog was Lamont Clarke's blog whose website is know available here:
http://lc0277.gratisim.fr/Adapting_SX_aircrafts_to_acceleration_carriers.html

But after years, many informations has been shared by developpers on these features (about plane implementation but also on carrier modeling).
I remember some great threads here in SOH where carriers modelers were sharing some important discoveries!!
:ernae:
You'll find in the FSDevelopper Wiki a very good synthesis of all these items:
http://www.fsdeveloper.com/wiki/index.php?title=Catapult/Arrestor_Operations_(FSXA)

Regards,
S.
 
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