Nemeth Designs Aerospatiale SA2 Samson released

[warchild]

Gentlemen.. Cool it or lose it.. You know the rules.. No politics, or flames. If you must continue, take it elsewhere or i WILL lock this thread..
Pam

 

[Roger]

This is going nowhere but mutual disrespect. Let's remember that this is a hobby.

Beat me to it Pam!

 

[strykerpsg]

Because all the best lies have a small foundation in truth? It's become the norm in movies these days, to use not so much product placement as name placement for endorsement purposes. Haven't seen Avatar, but I suppose there's a credit for Eurocopter/EADS at the end, somewhere?

Or it might be that Aerospatiale `ceased to be` in corporate terms back in 2000, so suing would be a waste of time, yet the name is familiar to many?

I had no idea Aerospatiale went out of business. Anyway, wasn't trying dig too far into the meaning of the movie, just liked it, the various craft and just literally thought I had missed some new concept vehicle the movie was copying.

Matt

 

[peter12213]

What on Earth has this got to do with the Samson, Its a great idea and a great addon and if anyone with any knowledge of rotorcraft knows Aerospatiale are a magnificent company who've designed lots of rotor craft that were never built but the fact remains they thought of everthing, what this has to do with the war on terror I do not know!! So lets keep this thread alive and leave what you think about the war for personal greivences! :salute:

 

[wbuchart]

but is it feasable.....

I'm the wrong kind of engineer for this, but the Sampson does seem feasable to me, kind of like a cross between a Blackhawk and a Chinook......


http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Aerospatiale_SA-2_Samson

 

[peter12213]

First thong when iblookwd at the Sam was Blackhawk too! Definately a family resemblence there I'm very much a futurologist and I certainly can see the Blackhawk in this magnificent model, personally I love mine even more after dave and Chris painted it!!

 

[peter12213]

Can ijust day I'm on my iPhone so sorry about the spelling and grammar!

 

[warchild]

no worries Pete..

now see,, I think your right though, it does look like a blackhawk with an attitude, but when i first saw its profile, it reminded me of Roger Deans Ornithopter in silhouette. Is it feasible?? Welllll, i remember when we could take a tin can and cut out both ends and fly those through the air.. they flew rather well too, soo, if a tin can is feasible, i dont see why this wouldnt be.. you may need to do some work on the tail section but it seems lie it should work..

 

[IanP]

Just to comment on the naming comments, Aerospatiale do still exist - they're just now part of the Eurocopter consortium.

However the naming is still interesting, as "SA" relates to Aerospatiale's predecessor - Sud Aviation - who originally developed the Alouette and Ecreuil helicopters (amongst others). This is why some Aerospatiale aircraft have "SA" codes (Sud Aviation) while others have "AS" codes (Aerospatiale). Most recently, they have got "EC" for Eurocopter.

I quite like the look of this little chap - won't be getting it because the same as everything else, my FS budget has dissapeared into a very cute and slightly waily Hayley person's budget - but it looks good fun. However I do suspect there might be trouble if Eurocopter's lawyers see it and aren't in a very good mood.

Ian P.

 

[SkippyBing]

In terms of the ducted fans, they're perfectly feasible and have been used in a couple of experimental VTOL aircraft. The idea is the duct accelerates the air through improving the thrust.
There are a few disadvantages obviously there's extra weight and for it to work properly you need the smallest tip/shroud clearance possible i.e. 1 or 2 mm but with sufficiently advanced engineering that shouldn't be a problem. I'm not sure how having the shroud in the way would affect translational lift in the pure helicopter form as it's going to prevent the blades getting into clear air to some extent. So you may need more power in slow speed flight than a more conventional design.
l

 

[Aussiecop]

However I do suspect there might be trouble if Eurocopter's lawyers see it and aren't in a very good mood.

Ian P.

Actually Eurocopter are very supportive of our work and have supplied us documentation on several of our models, you will find at least in the helicopter industry most RW helicopter companies see it as a great bit of free advertising for them and supply you with whatever can help with accuracy.

 

[allcott]

Actually Eurocopter are very supportive of our work and have supplied us documentation on several of our models, you will find at least in the helicopter industry most RW helicopter companies see it as a great bit of free advertising for them and supply you with whatever can help with accuracy.

That may be, but in the movie world they are notoriously litigious and we never got an answer to the question as to whether this is a product licensed by the producers of the movie?

 

[warchild]

In terms of the ducted fans, they're perfectly feasible and have been used in a couple of experimental VTOL aircraft. The idea is the duct accelerates the air through improving the thrust.
There are a few disadvantages obviously there's extra weight and for it to work properly you need the smallest tip/shroud clearance possible i.e. 1 or 2 mm but with sufficiently advanced engineering that shouldn't be a problem. I'm not sure how having the shroud in the way would affect translational lift in the pure helicopter form as it's going to prevent the blades getting into clear air to some extent. So you may need more power in slow speed flight than a more conventional design.
l

Some excellent points Skippy. I have to wonder if the folks at Nemeth didnt take that into account when they made it as when i fly it, i find that my best speed is achieved at about 50% throttle..

 

[warchild]

That may be, but in the movie world they are notoriously litigious and we never got an answer to the question as to whether this is a product licensed by the producers of the movie?

Well, i dont mean to appear flippant, and i admit i dont have the answer to the question you pose, however, I would expect that modeling this aircraft used in the movie would be no different than modeling any other device used in a movie of some sort ( a coke can for instance ). Although the aircraft was inv3ented for the movie, it carries the aerospatiale name, which is a copyrighted named whos said owners of that copyright are known as eurocopter. So the basic question would have to be, is the model licensed by eurocopter? As to whether or not Cameron licensed the name from eurocopter in order to use it in the movie, it doesnt matter. Thats his problem. As eurocopter has been supportive of Nemeth designs work, we can only assume that since Nemeth is still in business, that neither eurocopter, nor the distribution company that owns the rights to the Avatar production, really care, as they would have already hit Nemeth hard enough to close the doors permanently.

 

[OleBoy]

From the side lines, argumentative and contradictory responses of continuous, and by one individual ruins it for me. It's a flight simulator. Enjoy it for that.. as negativity is not needed to the output that's being provided.

 

[allcott]

Well, i dont mean to appear flippant, and i admit i dont have the answer to the question you pose, however, I would expect that modeling this aircraft used in the movie would be no different than modeling any other device used in a movie of some sort ( a coke can for instance ). Although the aircraft was inv3ented for the movie, it carries the aerospatiale name, which is a copyrighted named whos said owners of that copyright are known as eurocopter. So the basic question would have to be, is the model licensed by eurocopter? As to whether or not Cameron licensed the name from eurocopter in order to use it in the movie, it doesnt matter. Thats his problem. As eurocopter has been supportive of Nemeth designs work, we can only assume that since Nemeth is still in business, that neither eurocopter, nor the distribution company that owns the rights to the Avatar production, really care, as they would have already hit Nemeth hard enough to close the doors permanently.

I see. So the fact that somebody needs to complain is now your requirement for piracy? Interesting narrow-minded interpretation. So if someone were, for example, to pirate some software of yours in FSX as long as nobody complains to YOU it's OK?

It's a simple enough question to which a `yes` or `no` answer should have been provided.

The evasiveness tells me all I need to know about whether to purchase this or not. It is copyright infringement, of a copyright and intellectually-protected idea or concept. It IS piracy. And I want no part of it.

How strange that this hobby can operate such double standards, when it suits.

 

[IanP]

As usual, Simon is oversimplifying things to try and ramp things up to create an argument.

The reality is that he doesn't know exactly who does own the copyright - neither do I and I wonder how many people actually do, outside those who commissioned the design, completed the design and who licensed it for use? The word "Aerospatiale" is a trademark, rather than just copyrighted, so the use of that is a little more iffy than just using the likeness of a subject and it is highly unlikely that a high-visibility project like Avatar would use it without permission as it is pretty much guaranteed to come to the attention of the rights holder in that situation. However, how many projects - freeware and payware - in the FS world really are licensed to use trademarks such as "Boeing", "Airbus", "Eurocopter", type/model names and numbers and suchlike anyway? Especially freeware models?

So, Simon, is everyone who ever makes a model without express permission from the real world manufacturer a "pirate"?

I don't know the background between Nemeth, the film makers and the trademark/copyright holders so I'm not going to sling accusations around. I'm just asking the question out of interest as to where the line is drawn. In the strictest implementation of the law, here in the UK anyway, where there is no "Fair Use" clause at all, almost every developer in this hobby is guilty of copyright and/or trademark infringement somewhere.

Ian P.

 

[CodyValkyrie]

In my opinion on such things, it is better to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission. I couldn't care any less in this regard. The amount of people out there who would fulfill Snave's wide net of "piracy" on the commercial level would effectively shut down the making of aircraft for FS to the point that only the well funded projects with definitive sales could cover the cost of doing business.

Regardless of that, many developers seek approval from these companies, and since Nemeth is known for making Eurocopter aircraft, there is high likelihood that they are OK by it's use from said company.

And what business is it of mine anyhow? If I purchase the product, and it turns out to NOT be OK, that is not my problem, but that of the developer isn't it? Why has this debate even arisen? It is the COMPANY that takes on the responsibility, not the individual owner of the software who legally purchased it.

So, please, stop throwing the "pirate" lingo around. I feel people are drawing at straws here to give credit to their arguments for something that is not particularly our business in the first place.

 

[OleBoy]

Cheers Cody. You said exactly what I was feeling about the whole subject. Even though I made a direct, non-personal comment above. What we as the consumer get from a retail standpoint is all we need to be concerned with. All the other is between the developer and said parties (logo & manufacturers) and for them to worry about prior to the thought of development of their planned products.

Sorry for reiterating if I seemed to, but this whole topic just fumed me up when allcott made his/her first comment :salute:

 

[warchild]

Thank you Cody and OleBoy.. once i was accused i had no recourse without making myself look like a monster, so i had to be silent.. Thank you for saying something..
Pam