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The Staff of SOH
Next from AH: Republic P-47D Thunderbolt
- Thread starter YoYo
- Start date
blanston12
SOH-CM-2025
I wonder what the definition of "long time in beta" actually is. When a project enters beta, one is entirely in the hands of the beta testers. If a tester falls ill, goes on holdiay, has equipment problems or whatever, there is nothing to be done but wait. As any dev will tell you, lengthy and involved discussion can also evolve and slow things down. That's beta testing. It can take months. Thankfully we can multi-task...
Hi Bazzar, I don't mean to be disrespectful but I have worked as a software engineer in and around Silicon Valley for a very long time, and been in more than my share of beta test, both as developer and tester. Certainly its true that they can take a long time, you keep doing cycles until the beta testers stop reporting errors (at least errors worth stopping the release, no piece of software is ever totally bug free). But I have never heard of a beta test being delayed because one of the testers got sick or had an equipment problem, they simply are not participating any more. It would have to be someone very special (like the CEO or a senior VP) to do that, and if they were that important we would provide them with the equipment.
bazzar
Charter Member 2018
I am not altogether sure of the point of your post.
Beta testing of large commercial software systems is a very different kettle of fish to flight sim development. There are no rules or protocols in this game , just a reliance on a few people, mostly hobbyists, to test as best they can and report errors. But none of this is of any import anyway when, like us, one has no control over the beta process. Perhaps that should all change but I would be certain prices would rise, development would take longer and there would be less choice and variety.
I think a sense of perspective needs to be applied here. The value of the product is a fraction of the cost of major commercial software programmes, no money has been taken and certainly no harm has been done to anyone. This is not by any means a long development. The product will be released when it is ready.
Sometimes you just have to wait for the good things.
Beta testing of large commercial software systems is a very different kettle of fish to flight sim development. There are no rules or protocols in this game , just a reliance on a few people, mostly hobbyists, to test as best they can and report errors. But none of this is of any import anyway when, like us, one has no control over the beta process. Perhaps that should all change but I would be certain prices would rise, development would take longer and there would be less choice and variety.
I think a sense of perspective needs to be applied here. The value of the product is a fraction of the cost of major commercial software programmes, no money has been taken and certainly no harm has been done to anyone. This is not by any means a long development. The product will be released when it is ready.
Sometimes you just have to wait for the good things.
blanston12
SOH-CM-2025
I'm sorry Bazz, I had a weak moment this morning and I kept remembering your previous response and if I had said that to my VP of Engineering I would never hear the end of it.
Of course your right, we are in very different industries but the only thing I would challenge you on is the statement "one has no control over the beta process", as the project lead (I assume you are the project lead) you should maintain control over the beta process.
I will be quiet now patiently await the wonderfulness that arrive when its finally released.
Of course your right, we are in very different industries but the only thing I would challenge you on is the statement "one has no control over the beta process", as the project lead (I assume you are the project lead) you should maintain control over the beta process.
I will be quiet now patiently await the wonderfulness that arrive when its finally released.
Something that has to be remembered - by a lot of people - in this hobby and industry is that it is both. It's a hobby, which is heavily supported by a payware industry that is peoples' livelihood.
We want perfection and we want it now, but we want it cheap. I've been involved in many beta tests, payware, donationware and freeware, over the last twenty-five-odd years in the FS world and one of the really big challenges is how you run a beta. A lot of people will apply for betas purely to try and get a free aircraft; they will provide no feedback at any point, or maybe post once or twice to "justify" their being on the beta team. Others will test constantly, they'll be there every day with acres of feedback, but it's usually in their specific area of interest, so you'll get someone posting reams and reams of graphs and screenshots and text on the physics, or the model, or the sound, but nothing else. Finally you have the largest group, people who will test what and when they can. They're not experts, they have lives and jobs and houses to deal with away from the sim. They miss stuff, they aren't experts on anything, so they don't know to look for specific things... They're the most maligned but most common group of beta testers.
I've been in all three groups, on various projects at various times (most of the time in the third, majority, group on AH projects, sorry Baz!) but when I found myself posting less and less on beta forums, I quit them, primarily out of embarrassment. I know I'm not alone, for various reasons. Beta teams in the simulation industry tend to be made up primarily of hobbyists, have a high turnover rate and are primarily made up of people who have to do other things most of the time. Sometimes they'll get told to hold off on one project and move to another one, where people move between the three "groups" depending on their areas of knowledge and experience. You do get 'professional' beta teams, but most of the time, it's us. It's customers, people who are interested and prepared to help try and get a model out the door and working properly. They can't always provide the time for the quantity and quality of testing that they would like to.
Personally, I'd love to get back in there, to go back to creating my own test plans, test things, give feedback, make a product as good as it can be. My mental and physical health says no. I'd be in that first group I described, where I'm embarrassed to be, so I don't go there.
I'll shut up again now. I haven't even looked at Boxted, yet, either.
Ian P.
We want perfection and we want it now, but we want it cheap. I've been involved in many beta tests, payware, donationware and freeware, over the last twenty-five-odd years in the FS world and one of the really big challenges is how you run a beta. A lot of people will apply for betas purely to try and get a free aircraft; they will provide no feedback at any point, or maybe post once or twice to "justify" their being on the beta team. Others will test constantly, they'll be there every day with acres of feedback, but it's usually in their specific area of interest, so you'll get someone posting reams and reams of graphs and screenshots and text on the physics, or the model, or the sound, but nothing else. Finally you have the largest group, people who will test what and when they can. They're not experts, they have lives and jobs and houses to deal with away from the sim. They miss stuff, they aren't experts on anything, so they don't know to look for specific things... They're the most maligned but most common group of beta testers.
I've been in all three groups, on various projects at various times (most of the time in the third, majority, group on AH projects, sorry Baz!) but when I found myself posting less and less on beta forums, I quit them, primarily out of embarrassment. I know I'm not alone, for various reasons. Beta teams in the simulation industry tend to be made up primarily of hobbyists, have a high turnover rate and are primarily made up of people who have to do other things most of the time. Sometimes they'll get told to hold off on one project and move to another one, where people move between the three "groups" depending on their areas of knowledge and experience. You do get 'professional' beta teams, but most of the time, it's us. It's customers, people who are interested and prepared to help try and get a model out the door and working properly. They can't always provide the time for the quantity and quality of testing that they would like to.
Personally, I'd love to get back in there, to go back to creating my own test plans, test things, give feedback, make a product as good as it can be. My mental and physical health says no. I'd be in that first group I described, where I'm embarrassed to be, so I don't go there.
I'll shut up again now. I haven't even looked at Boxted, yet, either.
Ian P.
WarHorse47
SOH-CM-2024
I have a list of about 21 (military) flight sim aircraft or updates "in development" and I'd say about 1/3rd of these are slow to get released for one reason or another. This count includes some freeware, btw.
At least Baz has been kind enough to give us some answers and a few others have been great at posting screenshots on the development process, but others have been silent when asked about status or don't feel it necessary to inform us end customers.
If anyone needs another beta tester who is efficient, thorough, and good looking you know how to reach me.
At least Baz has been kind enough to give us some answers and a few others have been great at posting screenshots on the development process, but others have been silent when asked about status or don't feel it necessary to inform us end customers.
If anyone needs another beta tester who is efficient, thorough, and good looking you know how to reach me.
wombat666
Administrator
It all depends on commercial viability. There are currently two payware B-25s in production. Much as we would like to do one, it would be risky to put something into an already diluted market.
And that is worth bearing in mind when touting for one's own aviation wishlist!
