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Oceana F/A-18 pilots grounded after low flyover

What in the hell is this world coming to?

Mike

... A long overdue correction back to equilibrium and sanity! Because I think this holier-than-thou and merciless sense of punishment over any slight mistake has reached full stupidity and too many good people are being arbitrarily hung out to dry.

Every time something like this happens, you can bank on at least several potential recruits who decide perhaps the US military isn't the carerr for them after all!

Flying is supposed to be fun and you don't have to hot dog to have fun flying. However, there is a gross difference between hot dogging and an honest inability to calibrate your eyeballs to within 500 feet or so at low level.

Ken
 
My two cents is that this Admiral has a case of "watch me do this and thereby in some miniscule way justify my job". There's been a enviroment in the Navy upper echelons of eating their young since before I retired. It all goes back to zero tolerance for any transgressions which in my mind is a career killer and totally un-necessary.

On a related front for Ken. At the horse forums I frequent, a woman out west has been having problems with low flying aircraft coming in low level and scaring her horses enough that they're coming through the fences injuring themselves in the process. She says that this happens every few weeks. From her description, it's some kind of motorized glider. I told her to call the tower at her local airport and try to get the tail number of the aircraft. Any further suggestions that I could pass on, other than a shotgun and buckshot?
 
Two LCDR's? Hmmmm, they must have about 15 years in service. Drum them out before retirement eligibility? Saves money for the navy. I know a former LCDR who was drummed out with 16 years in. He was sufficiently connected and bitched enough to get a partial retirement, but I think he is the rare case.

Just my tinfoil hat thoughts.
 
It seems that we are NOT ALLOWED to have fun anymore.. What a Bummer..

That shouldn't pull those mens wings..They showed very good flying skills: low level in any Modern jet at speed takes skill and daring..
Perhaps they should be Teaching the "Brass" how to fly aircraft and Not desks..

So much for the good old days, when be "michievous" wasn't a Crime..
 
A few points:

-This waiver to fly over an event with assembled people had a hard deck. It is illegal to fly aerobatics or a flight demonstration over a crowd without a specific one-time waiver.

-You can't compare this flight to airshows because a military airshow demo pilot has a full aerobatic waiver for each performance and his sole flying mission is to demonstrate the aircraft, which he's been training for and has a fully developed and realized profile. He also belongs to a unit that primarily flies demos. In every service, just about any pilot who's approved can perform an event flyover. There's a very large difference. Many flyovers are tacked onto normal training sorties.

-The punishment is par for the course. It stinks, but everyone in today's military knows the stakes, and absolutely flawless behavior at all times is expected. They still chose to hang themselves out.

-Hotdogging and playing in aircraft is allowed, I guarantee every Super Hornet pilot at their base has had the oppurtunity to screw off a little, but there's a time and place such as on a low level route or out in Nevada. Perhaps if there weren't a jillion cameras rolling they would've fared better.


Personally, I think they didn't do anything wrong. If I were the commander, they'd get a slap on the wrist. They were a little excessively low, and I would rather see that height with higher speed for momentum, lower AOA for visibility and better margins and maneuvering, but that's all kinda whatever. An old colonel flight instructor of mine said that when he was a lieutenant, his AC rolled a B-1 so smoothly he barely noticed in the back of the aircraft. He had to find out later. MANY years later, someone reported the AC as the AC was going for his first star. My instructor was permanently refused full bird because of being part of the aircrew.



It's regrettable.
 
There's been a enviroment in the Navy upper echelons of eating their young since before I retired. It all goes back to zero tolerance for any transgressions which in my mind is a career killer and totally un-necessary.
I couldn't agree more Willy. All too often the Navy uses "zero tolerance" as a substitute for common sense and even-handed treatment in addressing infractions of regulations. Its history of witch-hunts and blame-placing is bad enough (USS Indianapolis sinking, USS Pueblo seizure, USS Iowa turret explosion). Then add political correctness (Tailhook convention scandal, SEALs prosecution) into the mix and you have an unhealthy atmosphere where a sailor is almost afraid to do his/her job for fear even a small mistake will cost them their career. :frown:
 
One thing to remember is the cost to the taxpayers for the USN aviator training - from Pensacola "Nugget" to operational O4 rank and Hornet drivers with a possible F-14 background, or possibly all Hornet time - all of the accumulated flight hours and experience - this really ticks me off now! Again, what the hell is this world coming to? I remember a time in my Navy Active duty service when "wings of gold" were hard to tarnish.

This is a big blow to Naval Aviation as I see it. Mike :kilroy:
 
My two cents is that this Admiral has a case of "watch me do this and thereby in some miniscule way justify my job". There's been a enviroment in the Navy upper echelons of eating their young since before I retired. It all goes back to zero tolerance for any transgressions which in my mind is a career killer and totally un-necessary.

On a related front for Ken. At the horse forums I frequent, a woman out west has been having problems with low flying aircraft coming in low level and scaring her horses enough that they're coming through the fences injuring themselves in the process. She says that this happens every few weeks. From her description, it's some kind of motorized glider. I told her to call the tower at her local airport and try to get the tail number of the aircraft. Any further suggestions that I could pass on, other than a shotgun and buckshot?

Might should also contact the FBO owner at any of the non-towered local airports also. Depending upon how many local airports there are, the glider could be launching from anywhere within 50 miles. The good news is there are very few motorized gliders so she has a good chance to track it down.

These gliders are subject to the same FAR/AIM that powered aircraft are subject to, and this includes the requirement that no pilot may operate his aircraft in a way to hazard the public, nor may he operate his aircraft at less than 500 feet above any person, structure, or object on the ground except for takeoffs and landings. Further, in a populated area, no pilot may operate his aircraft less than 1000 feet above the highest obstruction wtihint 2000 feet horizontal of the aircraft.

Sounds like by the witness, this glider pilot is violating at least three federal laws.

Ken
 
...at less than 500 feet above any person, structure, or object on the ground except for takeoffs and landings. .....


I'm sure you meant to say 'from' any person or property as opposed to 'above'. You can fly at 1 foot above the ground if the only piece of property around is a fence 500 feet to your right, or fly 1 foot off the water where no boats are within 500 feet.

Also of note is the rule about performances in front of an assembly of people. If she owns an equestrian center and there are 40 people gathered for horse activities on a Saturday, she could REALLY hammer the pilot by saying he was hottdogging it because he saw a gathering on the ground.
 
I find it ironic that the "Blues" and the "Birds" break rules at every airshow and all they get is a hand shake and a "job well done" and yet these 2 pilots who reported themselves upon landing get a much stiffer penalty!!!

I guess it's not what you did BUT who did it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bill
 
I would find it hard to believe those two pilots would do something to endanger the public at a game like that.To what they did and to justify that kind of punishment to me is totally uncalled for. To me some big wheel tird is really over stepping his authority.

When I first read your comment, Moe, something was bubbling up from inside me but I could not figure it out until just now. Of course, I fully agreed with your comment, but I didn't connect the dots in my cranium to fully understand why.

Until now!

I served most of my military career in Air Force Special Operations Command (AFSOC). And for many years I realized how fortunate that was. Over the years, the military outside Special Forces became so engrossed in politics that it lost its focus on mission accomplishment. Rules and rulebooks became far more important than flexible mission accomplishment.

It became within the larger military a top-heavy authoritarian concept. It didn't matter any longer if the mission was safely accomplished. Instead, it mattered entirely how well the subordinates followed every rule the brass established. You could be entirely successful, overcome a roadblock in your path, to accomplish a wartime mission. But, if you violated a rule while achieving success, even in combat operations, then the brass would crucify you!

I encountered a bit of that mentality but fortunately my bosses who's opinions really mattered on my career were AFSOC, and therefore were raised on a far more mission-centric ethic. They congratulated me for my decision to put the mission first and get the job done. However, since I was deployed, my immediate boss was not in AFSOC, but in Air Combat Command, where the rulebook is God almighty!

Didn't matter that I communicated immediately what the roadblock was. Didn't matter that I advocated a solution and my intent to follow it. Didn't matter that I made two efforts to call my boss on the phone twice before being compelled to put my solution into effect. Didn't matter that I was unable to reach him on the phone, but left two messages for him to call me back, and he didn't call me back to personally speak with me on the issue. Didn't matter that his email he sent me didn't arrive in time.

Nope, when faced with a decision to deviate from a written administrative rule and do it in a way that was safe and allowed the misison to be carried out, I decided to deviate and safely accomplish the mission.

My ACC boss hammered me and relieved me from command.

My AFSOC boss back home congratulated me!

That's why my career continued without a hitch. In fact, multiple times I had senior AFSOC officers shake my hand and tell me I made the right choice and put the mission first!

That is also why Special Forces are doing the lion's share of the successful work in this war even though by sheer numbers we are but a small fraction of the people and equipment allocated in the war. But, as regular forces sit in garrison with all the gear, small units of well trained SF are performing the mission all out of proportion to their numbers.

It is because these SF forces have a different concept of duty. When they are given a combat mission to carry out, they allow subordinates actually on the field to make ad-hoc decisions. SF are measured by one standard -- safe mission accomplishment. Safety is not paramount. Safe mission accomplishment is paramount. So, if you find a way to "hack the mission" you are rewarded for your ability to think agily and creatively to reach success. One of the best pieces of leadership advice I ever got was from an Army SF Colonel, who during an operation to capture a Serbian war criminal for transport to the Hague, when an important decision needed to be made by a SEAL team, I saw this Colonel sit by the radio and not make any inputs. When I asked him about it, he said, "The Army doesn't need an O-6 platoon leader!" In other words, the man had the faith in his people to make the right choices on the fly, and most important of all the personal courage to accept the risks of those decisions so made, without fear compelling him to micro-manage the fast-paced situation. Nor, had his SEAL team leader made a less than perfect choice would he had crucified him. His SEAL team leader made the right choices and accomplished the mission. I never forgot that lesson, and applied it to the best extent I could from then on. Unfortunately, my immediate bosses while deployed many years later were not that of the same mind as that Army SF Colonel, nor could they possibly comprehend what that old Colonel understood!

All the company grade officers during Vietnam, who learned the painful lessons of an overly bureaucratic senior leadership, and promised to do things differently when they became general officers, have since retired. They have been replaced by a generation of officers who mostly came through the ranks during a period of prolonged peace. They rose through bureaucratic decision-making, and their lives are dominated by CYA and rules! They stifle creative thinking in subordinate officers and NCO's. They want absolute control over the smallest of decisions, and will destroy the careers of officers and NCO's who act independently to the degree required to get a job done. Worst of all, they live in a climate of personal fear for the impact on their careers that dynamic subordinate mission decisions might cause. So, they seek to stifle that creative thinking so vital to winning a war! And by destroying the careers of subordinates who make hard choices to achieve mission success, or make honest mistakes, they further create a climate of fear within the ranks, and promote those who share the same obsession on micro-management, with the associated refusal to bend the rules to achieve success against an enemy who's intent is to see your mission fail!

This is the true damage the current generation of military general officers are causing. The rule books have exploded in size, complexity, and scope. The smallest actions are now codified and dominated by a lawyeristic layer of jargon and often conflicting instruction. The current Rules of Engagement are so thick with requirements that complaints are being uttered in increasing stridency by enlisted members, NCO's, and lower ranking officers to a degree not seen since Vietnam. And we all know what happened ultimately in Vietnam! The climate became so bad that Bill Gates in desperation, called upon an officer who had already announced his pending retirement to his many friends in AFSOC. However, this old officer, Norton Schwartz, was called upon to become the current Air Force Chief of Staff. Gates said, "Give me an officer without a call sign!" He got one. He's been known as "Norty" his whole career. He's a straight shooter -- an honest and hard working man who knows the pains of Vietnam first hand as a very young Lieutenant flying the right seat of a "Slick" C-130E, and he doesn't tolerate bureacratic officers who stand in the way of mission success. He's fired many a wing commander for failure to meet objective performance standards, especially mishandling of nuclear weapons! He cut most of his career path in AFSOC!

It is time to call it like it is, and I am glad to be liberated as a civilian so I can now talk about it openly. It must change. And we as the people who ultimately pay the bills are the ones who can work to make it change. Norty Schwartz is trying to change it, but he has many enemies within the big blue AF standing in his way! Rational changes must be made to destroy this obsessive level of control and intolerance of even the smallest errors. This situation with these two clearly professional and responsible Naval aviators brought up all the BS I have had to see take place since the Norman Schwartzkoph's and Colin Powell's retired. These men were Lieutenants and Captains in Vietnam and they swore personal oaths that they would act opposite of the way generals like William Westmoreland did in Vietnam.

This is the prime reason why Desert Storm was fought to such spectacular success with such low casualties. When the decision to kill was made, the men in the ranks were told to get in there and kill! The ROE were clear and the mandate was simple -- find the enemy and kill the enemy! If Stormin Norman got upset about anything, it was when his subordinate general officers didn't get in there and kill fast and efficiently enough!

As a direct consequence to this clear thinking, the same generation of general officers also knew the difference between an honest mistake in peacetime operations versus indications of true unprofessional actions, or a climate that prevented people getting a job done right. They would forgive the former and punish the latter. Rightly so!

Today, the bureaucratic generation of generals are so quick to second guess their own leaders in the field. They are quick to react to honest mistakes by erecting further layers of overbearing rules of engagement, making everyone's job ever more difficult. Worse, they have sponsored a climate of 100% unforgiveness, a merciless sense of authority, rules, and climate of enforcement. In short, they act to protect their careers vice act to achieve the mission!

Fortunately, I got to serve the balance of my career in the one exception -- Special Forces. Now I fear whether before the unavoidable correction back to equilibrium takes place, whether the climate of CYA, rules, and oppressive authority might destroy the flexible climate of dynamic subordinancy that has come to characterize Special Forces, and account for their near total levels of safe mission accomplishment despite being given the toughest jobs in the toughest of circumstances.

Sincerely offered,

Ken Stallings
 
Wasn't there a Blue Angels crash attributed to incorrect altimeter pressure setting, a while ago?

There was a thunderbirds F-16 crash and (successful ejection) by a pilot who I think had QNH set when starting a loop rather than QFE. Started too low, and finished too low.

Edit: In fact here's an excellent video of it. Wasn't a loop;

http://www.encyclopedia.com/video/alo_XWCqNUQ-thunderbirds-ejectcrash-how-it-happened.aspx

I'll say again that the pilot was safe and sound.
 
I find it ironic that the "Blues" and the "Birds" break rules at every airshow and all they get is a hand shake and a "job well done" and yet these 2 pilots who reported themselves upon landing get a much stiffer penalty!!!

I guess it's not what you did BUT who did it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bill

The blues and the birds (and indeed every pro demo team) break no regulations whatsoever. However, I do think the penalty for this incident is ridiculous.
 
There was a thunderbirds F-16 crash and (successful ejection) by a pilot who I think had QNH set when starting a loop rather than QFE. Started too low, and finished too low.

Edit: In fact here's an excellent video of it. Wasn't a loop;

http://www.encyclopedia.com/video/alo_XWCqNUQ-thunderbirds-ejectcrash-how-it-happened.aspx

I'll say again that the pilot was safe and sound.


That was a case of not considering the density altitude of his elevation. It was a stupid error and he almost paid the ultimate price for his error.

Ken, well said. However, even the Special Forces are started to see the nit picking, pissant B.S. The case of the SEALs who are being court marshaled for breaking a terrorist's nose is an example of what you were talking about.
 
I thought about adding my observations on that exact situation, but knew my post was already getting way too long.

However, those two SEALS weren't dimed out by their fellow SF peers and commanders. It wasn't until the thug they captured made outrageous accusations through his civilian lawyer that the brass inside the regular Navy decided to take the word of a murderous thug over their own SF leadership!

But you are right, this prosecution despite all evidence to the contrary is a low point for the problems I am talking about. So you are right to bring it up.

It's just another example of the regular military walking all over everything and everyone to keep up the PC appearances.

Ken
 
I thought about adding my observations on that exact situation, but knew my post was already getting way too long.

However, those two SEALS weren't dimed out by their fellow SF peers and commanders. It wasn't until the thug they captured made outrageous accusations through his civilian lawyer that the brass inside the regular Navy decided to take the word of a murderous thug over their own SF leadership!

But you are right, this prosecution despite all evidence to the contrary is a low point for the problems I am talking about. So you are right to bring it up.

It's just another example of the regular military walking all over everything and everyone to keep up the PC appearances.

Ken

After posting Ken, I decided to do a search and see if there was any updated info on the SEAL injustice. I found a letter from the head of the former SEALs organization to all of its members. He stated that the NSW was NOT who brought the charges but from with the greater Naval JAG system. Probably some two-bit LT (JG) JAG who hates everyone better than he is, which means just about everyone, trying to make points.

After reading the book Lone Survivor" I have a better understanding how the current ROE is tying the hands of the combatants. We complained about in in SEA. I guess it is even worse now.
 
I find it ironic that the "Blues" and the "Birds" break rules at every airshow and all they get is a hand shake and a "job well done" and yet these 2 pilots who reported themselves upon landing get a much stiffer penalty!!!

I guess it's not what you did BUT who did it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bill

That is not true at all. The Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds fly under an aerobatic waiver that is specific to each demonstration. Within that waiver, there are another set of rules as well as the airshow's specific rules. That being said, They don't break the rules.
 
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Here you go,this pilot has nerve,I'll give that to him.:d
 
The Rear Admerial has lost his mind

I served in the Navy on LSD 39 U.S.S. MT Vernon (an amphibious ship currently on permanent patrol Naval Weapons Station Catalina, ca.), I have been out pushing 14 years. We road in the back of the bus and most of the time we were not sure what carrier we were following. To punish these pilots is a crime, they flew too low they are trained professionals at no time was anyone or any property in danger. They were doing a low speed pass. Unlike some of the Air National Guard stationed in Fresno ca., my office is just up the street from the airport and those rocket jockeys are at mach 1+ over the city all the time on their takeoffs.
The Navy Pilots just wanted the people at the game to get an up-close good look at what their tax $$ are paying for in flight.
John
 
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