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On warpath with AFA

Record or not..
The bottom line is that they couldn't afford to have an "off-day"....They had to be better to be considered equal....

Mistake was not an option...

It's my OPINION that Archer didn't care about the "5" was because given the circumstances in the 1940s, he knows he was damn lucky to be even afforded the opportunity to fly....
 
That's exactly right, Ed. And to be fully accurate one would have to insert himself in the mindset that was prevalent in that time. I am sure there was also a mindset within these black airmen who were accustomed to being unfairly denied, and that combined with the knowledge than any time a black person at the time complained, their complaints were deliberately mislabeled with the "uppity N-word" condemnation! These men knew their success as a group was more vital than individual recognition.

It is impossible for those of us alive today to fully understand the climate these men operated under. And indeed, a large part of their success is that we no longer can understand it because things have so fundamentally changed since then. The only people in the ETO who treated the Tuskegee Airmen with equal opportunity were the men of the German Luftwaffe! The Tuskegee Airmen were given a fully equal chance at KIA status!

As often happens, a side issue has emerged in this forum, with those wanting it aired relying upon a source that seems legitimate. That's fine. One must always "go with the flow" as they say. However, as I wrote before, bombers were lost. But they were lost by flak and by enemy fighters when they were not being escorted by the pilots of the 332nd FG (Tuskegee Airmen).

There are two points to be made. First, there is zero logic to justify terming the claim as a lie. That is a terrible thing to say because it presumes it was uttered to deceive, and that is rank nonsense! Nor was it an exaggeration given the recognition was officially bestowed upon Davis' 332 FG by his immediate commanding officer, Colonel Buck Taylor. Second, the principled efforts of Bill Holton and the AF Historical Research Agency has one obstacle that they do acknowledge. The combat reports have to be carefully analyzed for when the bombers were shot down and where the fighters of the 332nd FG were when these bombers were shot down.

At the time of these events, Colonel Taylor believed the airmen never lost a bomber to enemy fighters while the bombers were under their escort. I do not believe a group commander would have documented such a fact unless it was accurate. The point is that frequently bomber formation would be assigned to different escort units during one sortie while in different phases of their flight. This is why it is imperative that the raw combat reports of losses be correlated to the timeframe. This is also why a letter commending Davis' unit can also reference losses. Those losses may well have happened after the Tuskegee Airmen were relieved of their assignment for that formation.

Many times the bombers would enjoy escort for only a portion of their route, proceed without escort, and then rendezvous with another escort for part of the return routing. The article was written in December 2006 and even those supporting the concerns say more research was needed. So, let's look at what happened as a result of that additional investigation.

For about a year, the combat action reports were scoured, culminating with information that up to 25 bombers were shot down by the Luftwaffe on days where the Tuskegee Airmen were assigned escort duty for said bomber formations. The key is same day. For reasons entirely a result of not mattering in the big picture, the reports did not specify if the 332nd FG were providing escort at the time of the shoot downs.

This is a point that is important to the claim. Davis' boss believed they were not lost while under the 332nd FG's escort. Other historians have researched the same data and reached the same conclusions, including those of the National Defense University, saying they reviewed the over 200 combat reports filed by the 332nd FG and not one documented a lost bomber. Benjamin Davis was ruthlessly honest and I have to believe if they knew of a loss, they would have documented it. Certainly no one went into combat operations expecting such a result.

Even if one wishes to take the most negative view, and say that all 25 bombers were shot down while being escorted, and never after the escort was relieved, it still amounts to a fraction of the total bomber losses to enemy fighters. I can understand historians wanting to be conservative in their statements, and an organization wanting to avoid use of a claim that is under reasonable methods of question. However, that does not mean we term the claims as exaggerations or lies.

Nor do we use this issue as a factual example to dispute the 332nd FG airmen were not operating under intense racism and hatred and had people in very high places who wanted them to fail and became invested in their failure. More to the point of this thread, it doesn't change one iota the fact that a claim was confirmed and then weeks later revoked with the timing taking place precisely when the previous claim would have bestowed ace status on Lt Col Archer.

Now, I hope this clarifies the matter.

Ken
 
Lee Archer an ace or not...bombers lost or not...thats not what matters.

this is what matters...from a B-24 pilot...

"The P-38s always stayed too far out. Some of the Mustang group stayed in too close ... Other groups, we got the feeling that they just wanted to go and shoot down 109s ... The Red Tails were always out there where we wanted them to be ... We had no idea they were Black; it was the Army's best kept secret."
 
Did the pilots of the 332nd FG actually fly five times as many sorties as all the other fighter groups? During the same period of time?
 
Yes, they did.

On average, a fighter pilot's single ETO tour comprised about 20 to 25 combat sorties. However, on average the pilots of the 332 FG averaged over 100 sorties.

It was a testimonial to the investment the nation made. We had so many pilots available that we could rotate them out regularly so no one suffered from cumulative effects of combat fatigue. The Germans and Japanese lost a lot of very good fighter and bomber pilots (and crews) because they were so worn out they lost focus and were killed when at their sharpest would not have been.

Ken
 
PRB,
Here's a quote from an article about Benjam O' Davis Jr.

"Sometimes his men flew six combat missions per day, more than white pilots."
 
What I've heard from bomber crew interviews was that the Tuskeegee boys followed doctrine and stayed with the bombers. Other fighter jocks would run off chasing glory at the first sight of German aircraft. That is supposed to be what led to their remarkable record.
 
What I've heard from bomber crew interviews was that the Tuskeegee boys followed doctrine and stayed with the bombers. Other fighter jocks would run off chasing glory at the first sight of German aircraft. That is supposed to be what led to their remarkable record.

I don’t know if I would put it quite that way.
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It’s been a few years since I’ve read on the subject of “fighter escort doctrine in the ETO in WW-II”, but I seem to remember there was some difference of opinion as to what tactic was more effective. The “common sense” approach, and that used when the campaign started, was to stick close to the bombers. At some point, somebody(s) decided that a more effective tactic would be to “turn the fighters loose” to actively pursue enemy VF. I’m not up to speed on what the current thinking is among historians today as to which “faction” was correct, but the last time I read on this, the consensus seemed to be that tying the escort fighters to the bombers was “inefficient”. Thinking about it now, I suppose it was “inefficient” in terms of racking up kills to paint on the side of your P-51, and I can see how such tactics could be viewed by bombers crews as “deserting the bombers to go 109 hunting." So what was "doctrine", and did it "evolve" from 1942 to 1945?
 
" So what was "doctrine", and did it "evolve" from 1942 to 1945?

I know what some modern doctrine is since I've had to become intimately familiar with some of the AFDDs...(Air Force Doctrine Documents) :d

On a more serious level, if there's a 1940s equivalent of an AFDD, I don't know what it's called....:ques:
 
I don’t know if I would put it quite that way.
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It’s been a few years since I’ve read on the subject of “fighter escort doctrine in the ETO in WW-II”, but I seem to remember there was some difference of opinion as to what tactic was more effective. The “common sense” approach, and that used when the campaign started, was to stick close to the bombers. At some point, somebody(s) decided that a more effective tactic would be to “turn the fighters loose” to actively pursue enemy VF. I’m not up to speed on what the current thinking is among historians today as to which “faction” was correct, but the last time I read on this, the consensus seemed to be that tying the escort fighters to the bombers was “inefficient”. Thinking about it now, I suppose it was “inefficient” in terms of racking up kills to paint on the side of your P-51, and I can see how such tactics could be viewed by bombers crews as “deserting the bombers to go 109 hunting." So what was "doctrine", and did it "evolve" from 1942 to 1945?

Paul,

You are correct in what you say. Doctrine for the allies in the ETO did undergo a fundamental shift, which the 332nd FG deliberately chose to ignore. They did not do this to undermine the underlying strategy. They did it because Benjamin O. Davis quite rightly deduced that in the case of the 332nd FG any bomber losses would be used as an excuse to declare "the experiment" a failure, fold the unit, enlist the airmen, and set back the advancement of civil rights in America a full generation.

The doctrine was changed shortly after Jimmy Doolittle arrived on scene and rightly deduced that the bombers could serve two strategic roles. First, they could continue to bomb German production and transportation facilities. But second, they could be used as bait to draw the Luftwaffe fighter arm from every other theater in the war, and the allies could adopt tactics for their fighter units to destroy those fighters. Combined with what damage the bombers' gunners could inflict directly, such a policy would bleed the Luftwaffe fighter arm white.

It worked! Spectacularly!

The tactic of loose escort was therefore adopted. Fighters would be assigned dual purpose roles. They would escort bombers to the target while laden with bombs and flying slow. Then after bombs release they would detach and go down low and engage targets of opportunity. These often included Luftwaffe airbases. It was also during this time that the ETO changed policy on confirmed kills and decided that an aircraft destroyed on the ground would count as an aerial victory. It was a brilliant decision that encouraged pilots to engage in the very dangerous attacks of said airbases.

This tactic also encouraged deliberate air taskings to allied fighter units to loiter near Luftwaffe bases timed to coincide with an expected scramble to form up and attack a known bomber raid. Then these allied fighters would butcher the fighters while taking off. Other taskings put allied fighters overhead the bases timed to coincide with Luftwaffe fighers that returned from attacking the bombers.

We had plenty of fighters and pilots to devote to these parallel missions.

The effect was dramatic. Luftwaffe fighter loses exploded. As a result the Luftwaffe had to drain fighters from the Eastern Front, which is the primary reason why the Germans lost air superiority over this front, and why the IL-2 Sturmovik became the lengendary ground attack aircraft it became.

This is why in my initial post on this issue I put a caveat in my writings that admitted perhaps the Tuskegee Airmen's tactic wasn't the best decision all other factors being equal. Unfortunately for them, they weren't operating in an equal environment. Therefore, Davis' order made solid sense. Regardless, the bomber crews most certainly benefitted from it directly.

Ken
 
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