OT: Dovetail to launch two new flight sim titles in 2016

[stansdds]

The Windows 10 screaming amuses me... only flightsimmers seem to be upset, but its actually a great OS. Stable, efficient, fast, and runes P3d and Fsx fine... wazza problem?

Forced upgrade of OS and possibly a whole new computer, that's likely the problem. Same problems when FSX came out. A lot of us, including me, did not have computers that would run FSX. For FSX we all had to upgrade to at least Windows XP. I see the point of focusing development of a new flight sim on Windows 10. MS has stated that Windows 10 will be the last major version of Windows, it will be the base upon which future upgrades and improvements will be made and support for all previous versions of Windows will eventually be dropped. Why code a new sim for old operating systems that MS has said they will stop supporting? FSX has hit a wall with the 32-bit limitation, it's time for something fresh and new, something that can take full advantage of a 64-bit environment and modern hardware.

 

[n4gix]

This from DTG's Facebook page dated August 7, 2015:
"Dovetail Games At this moment in time we are only targeting a Windows 10 release and are fully focused on creating the best possible flight simulation we can for the PC platform.Whilst we may look into a console release down the line at the moment our efforts are exclusively PC based."

<bang!> B A N G ! That was the sound of DTG shooting themselves in the foot. There's no reason whatever for them to make this a Win10 exclusive title. Win7x64 fully supports DX11 after all! </bang!>

 

[ncooper]

There is no mention of "exclusive" except here.

They do say Direct X 11, if they had said Direct X 12 then
Windows <10 users might have had cause to worry.

To me the statement is a very long way to say that they are
making a PC version and not a console version.

 

[StormILM]

<bang!> B A N G ! That was the sound of DTG shooting themselves in the foot. There's no reason whatever for them to make this a Win10 exclusive title. Win7x64 fully supports DX11 after all! </bang!>

Bill, that was exactly my thought when I first read that but then again, DTG has yet to unveil very much about the new sim nor their reason for making that particular statement. As we all know, previous decisions/statements are quite often subject to change. Right now, all we can really do is wait until the details fully materialize and hope that all or most of the bases are covered when it does. I'm optimistic.

 

[IanP]

Er, Bill... You might want to look up a few facts.

Microsoft are now forcing users to upgrade to Windows 10 if they have automatic updates switched on - which most people do. As simmers, many of us think of ourselves as "computer savvy" but even most simmers install "recommended" updates without looking.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/02/microsoft_ups_pressure_win_10_holdouts/

Microsoft stopped "mainstream" support of Windows 7 last month. It's now what is termed a "zombie" operating system, existing without anything but expensive "extended" support.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/lifecycle

Windows 10 has already far surpassed take-up of Windows 8/8.1 (slightly unsurprisingly) so the number of users sticking to 7 or using 8/8.1 is, or very soon will be, far surpassed by those on Windows 10. Also, people have been incorrectly accusing Windows 10 of not running FSX/FSX-SE correctly since the first public releases, in spite of massive evidence to the contrary...

It makes sense to specify Windows 10 - the only MS OS now shipping - rather than what the industry, if not the entire userbase, considers obsolete versions.

Ian P.

 

[YoYo]

<bang!> B A N G ! That was the sound of DTG shooting themselves in the foot. There's no reason whatever for them to make this a Win10 exclusive title. Win7x64 fully supports DX11 after all! </bang!>

I hope its a joke. I don't want W10 and dont like it.

 

[hairyspin]

Pardon me. Windows 7 is still supported, and will be until 2020. Patches, security updates etc are still being produced.

 

[bazzar]

DTG acquired the franchse for FSX and Flight. There's probably a lot more we are not privvy to and should not be. I for one seriously doubt whether anybody with the business potential to do those things with Microsoft would "shoot themselves in the foot" or proceed on such a path without reference to, negotiation with or consultation with Microsoft.You design for the future, not the past.

All I am hearing right now is comment akin to these historical (hysterical?) observations:

Travelling over 20 mph will result in heart failure.
A computer in every home? Science fiction.
Calculators should be banned in schools.
"FSX will never replace FS9 on my computer, that's a fact."

The same rules apply here as with any addition to our hobby. If you don't like what you see, don't buy it. It's not compulsory.

 

[Adonis]

That's the $50,000 question many want to know. I've heard a number of sources note that every addon from FSX would come to a grinding halt in a 64bit version (supposedly due to gauges and a number of other factors) but I've heard others say that's not necessarily the case or at all. I do take note that FSX and P3D are both 32 bit programs which will run fine on a 64bit OS. I do understand the difference, the addons are built/optimized to run inside a 32bit program but I still believe there is likely a logical (and possibly painless way) to migrate. Maybe I'm wrong on my supposition of the latter but I'm sure this is being looked at and worked on from every conceivable angle. With regards to the question of "why not just go ahead and get P3Dv3"?, my biggest ill (as well as many users) is the VAS limitation and other bugs related to memory, etc. I think DFS is going to pretty much cure all the FSX bugs and open a whole new world of capabilities (if I am reading the tech end of all this correctly). I believe both DFS and P3D will end up sharing a number of common elements and this news (regarding DFS being 64bit from the get-go) seems to parallel the word that P3D will get similar 64bit treatment in due course. I don't think any of us will be disappointed in the end product but I do believe the current FSX user migration will be gradual much as it was for many who changed over from a long use of FS9 over to FSX during the last decade.

Let's make something abundantly clear here: 32bit dll's don't work in 64 bit programs. Either the entire program is 64 or 32bit, you can't mix the two. The 32bit parts need to be rewritten pretty much from scratch to work with a 64bit program.

My only real issue here is if DTG will turn these into DLC fests like they did with their previous stuff and if the program will be optimized specifically for PC, because most games (not to mention Sims) in general are not. Games that are run smoothly with the proper settings for the hardware you have regardless of what happens. For examples of ones that are, look at The Talos Principle and The vanishing of Ethan Carter.

 

[Tony G]

Why would anyone expect them to release those based on Win7, a legacy operating system? I have win7 for my main gaming system, but run Win10 in my home office, and am seriously considering moving the gaming rig to 10. It's that good.

WinXP was great, but is anyone running it anymore, or expecting developers be focusing on developing for that platform?

 

[StormILM]

Let's make something abundantly clear here: 32bit dll's don't work in 64 bit programs. Either the entire program is 64 or 32bit, you can't mix the two. The 32bit parts need to be rewritten pretty much from scratch to work with a 64bit program.

You are correct in the sense of a "Direct Drop-In" not being possible but it's still possible to create a workaround to access 32bit dll's from a 64bit platform but obviously any workarounds are likely to be complex/tricky and be more trouble than they are of real benefit. However, it is also very possible to create a method to migrate 32bit to 64bit (it has been done and continues to be done). The real question is, how painless can such a process be made to be or would it be easier to use an SDK template of sorts to rapidly re-write a 64bit version from the ground up? Obviously there's going to be fresh new development from day one as the new sim gets off the ground.

Whatever the end game is, it will certainly put us in a better position than where things were left off from where FS11 development dropped off.

 

[Jafo]

Current usage stats for OS versions.

https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

Win 7 is ONLY 'legacy' in the minds of the current crop of idiots at Redmond.

People at MS had to throw themselves on their swords re Win 8 ... some 'features' of 10 will see more of them.

It is no surprise that 8 and 8.1 are being surpassed by 10 in usage/adoption....they were both dogs, barely better than Win ME.

10 has funamental issues with its 'management' [by Redmond] - forced updating being the principal issue.

Re 'forced upgrade'...it's not hard to disable and remain happily on 7..... which IS still supported without imminent issue.

 

[heywooood]

and so the discussion devolves into complaints about which OS will work, backward compatibility, and consoles inclusion or exclusion...

we could wait to hear more details from DTG...

we could accept that time passes in a linear way and that the new must eventually supersede the old - especially in programming and hardware..

we could accept that more people own consoles than PC's now..and for quite a while

Do I want to admit that I have spent too much money on FSX and its addons - no

Am I excited about the possibility that DTG is going to reinvigorate the genre and render all that software obsolete...maybe.

I want a flight sim that not only does what FSX does, but goes 10 times farther, that does it efficiently and smoothly, that does it all on hardware that might be upper end but isn't 10 years away in the future

Can DTG do that? who knows - but if they aren't trying then whats the point?

 

[IanP]

There's no discussion. Win7 is no longer distributed, no more keys are available than have already shipped and Microsoft ended all but paid-for, pre-arranged, support on 13 January 2015. Over a year ago. Yes, you can still pay them for support - many large organisations do - but it costs. A lot. I know. I saw my old company's bill for WinXP and how quickly they upgraded to 7.

As several people have said, you have to develop for the future, not the past. That's one of the mistakes that ACES admitted that they made with FSX, when they assumed clock speeds would keep increasing and thus didn't develop FSX to work effectively on multi-CPU systems, even though the CPU manufacturers were already saying that faster clock speeds would cause irresolvable temperature control issues. Dovetail aren't stupid and have specifically said that they intend to support XBox consoles on all of their titles - Fishing and Train Sim this year, FS in the future "when possible". I haven't heard anything about Playstation, but given their ties with MS, I personally wouldn't see them supporting Sony's boxes. I may well be wrong, especially given that PS4 has sold a lot more than XBone (Microsoft's figures that they accidentally released a few weeks ago. ).

Thing is, FSX still works and DTG have also specifically stated that they are continuing to support FSX:SE, so if you can't use the new titles then you can't use the new titles. You don't lose anything you already have, because they're released.

Ian P.

 

[rhumbaflappy]

By using DX11, I think Dovetail is allowing for Windows7 systems. They are not guaranteeing Flight simulator will work 100% on older operating systems, but it might. They are guaranteeing it will not work on 32-bit systems or with video cards less than DX11.

It's a good decision from Dovetail's position. Move forward and stop accounting for legacy system support, and save some money.

Dick

 

[n4gix]

Er, Bill... You might want to look up a few facts.

Ian, I deal only with facts. Many months ago I used a free tool to totally remove the Win10 nagware. Since I develop fulltime for flight sim products, I simply cannot afford to risk my stable production pipeline to accommodate MS's plans for my computer(s).

MS will continue to provide minimally needed patches, security updates, and so forth until 2020, without anyone having to pay for "support."
Many of the tools I use will not work at all under Win10, and replacement programs are not yet available.

 

[Hughes-MDflyer4]

Current usage stats for OS versions.

https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

Win 7 is ONLY 'legacy' in the minds of the current crop of idiots at Redmond.

People at MS had to throw themselves on their swords re Win 8 ... some 'features' of 10 will see more of them.

It is no surprise that 8 and 8.1 are being surpassed by 10 in usage/adoption....they were both dogs, barely better than Win ME.

10 has funamental issues with its 'management' [by Redmond] - forced updating being the principal issue.

Re 'forced upgrade'...it's not hard to disable and remain happily on 7..... which IS still supported without imminent issue.

It's amazing how ridiculously you people bash things. It's just an operating system. The only major difference with 8/8.1 (besides the notable optimizations) was the user interface - and that was perfectly learn-able. I don't get why people think it was so horrible and useless.

Many of the tools I use will not work at all under Win10, and replacement programs are not yet available.

Really curious what tools you are using that don't work. Over the past 6+ months, I've not had a single incompatible development application yet (or any application, for that matter).

---------------------------

But, let me not get too far off topic. I doubt Dovetail would make their sims Windows 10 exclusive titles, as like it's already been said, Windows 7 is still used by the majority.

 

[IanP]

Well, I've potentially got some good news for the fans of W7 - it appears (I've only heard this second hand, but from a very reliable source) that the source of the "...for Windows 10..." quote was a press release from Microsoft, not from DTG themselves. They, obviously, have a vested interest in pushing Win10 and ignoring Win7. We'll obviously have to wait for confirmation of this from DTG, but it sounds like they aren't ruling out Win7 support at all - it's just Microsoft trying to hush it up. Don't take that as definite from me, though - wait until DTG say something definitive. It does sound like you'll still get to play, though.

Fr. Bill: Try phoning or e-mailing Microsoft and asking for support on a Windows 7 issue. You'll find out very quickly what "extended support" means, which is "credit card or purchase order number, please?" - also, why did you need to run a tool to remove a very well known \Windows update? I just removed the update and the nag was gone. They re-released it with a new number, so I removed that too. Upgraded to Windows 10 when I wanted, in a controlled way. The only application I've had problems running so far was an original Fallout 4 installed from DVD and that was fixed by installing a patch which is as applicable to Windows 7 and 8/8.1 as it is to 10.

When looking at PC usage figures, don't forget that the majority of PCs are business machines, belonging to companies, who use them for business purposes, not flight simulation. Those PCs will remain Windows 7 until their support staff are absolutely convinced that 10 will work. 8/8.1 had massive problems from a business perspective, which is why most companies bypassed it. 10 also has problems from a business perspective, hence slow take-up by said businesses. Overall PC OS usage figures are NOT a good comparison for home/entertainment software.

Ian P.

 

[hairyspin]

 

[StormILM]

We've certainly covered a good bit of ground here, both hopes and concerns and I do not discount any opinions/concerns (and I'm certain that DTG Dev's are paying attention to such concerns). All we can really do now is wait & see what official news comes out in the coming months.