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*OT* Variable Pitch Propellers *OT*

Pam, one thing I've found with FSX is that sometimes things are treated from a programers point of view, rather than an engineers so although a propellers pitch is referenced to it's plane of rotation in FS it's refence the direction of travel. It's equally valid, just not what you expect to see if you're used to working with aircraft or indeed boats.

Having said that, I think if you read the prop pitch as an angle FSX reports it in the correct sense. I seem to remember when I was working on the Wyvern setting 0 Degrees in that let the engine race up while you sat on the runway doing nothing!

As an aside years ago when I was covering propeller design on my degree course (boats not aircraft but it's the same theory) there was an article about some race aircraft with a fixed pitch prop which I believe was going for some sort of speed record. It had around 60" of pitch (60" of advance per revolution assuming no losses), it was effectively stalled until about 110 kts!
 
Pam, one thing I've found with FSX is that sometimes things are treated from a programers point of view, rather than an engineers so although a propellers pitch is referenced to it's plane of rotation in FS it's refence the direction of travel. It's equally valid, just not what you expect to see if you're used to working with aircraft or indeed boats.

Having said that, I think if you read the prop pitch as an angle FSX reports it in the correct sense. I seem to remember when I was working on the Wyvern setting 0 Degrees in that let the engine race up while you sat on the runway doing nothing!

ok.. I think i got this straight then. Since the propeller is moving forward "X" number of inches per revolution, we can calculate an angle at any given point on the prop at the beginning of one rotation to that same point on the prop at the end of that rotation. That becomes the plane of movement, and the angle of the pitch of the prop in relation to that plane on a constant speed prop is maintained at 0 degrees in relation to that plane, where it can do its most efficient work, and any reduction in pitch in relation to that plane reduces the props efficiency and ability to move the craft forward, but since it slows the craft down, the angle of the plane of motion changes and the prop therefore remains at zero degrees pitch in relation to that plane of motion, while maintaining a degree of pitch in relation to the shaft it is rotating upon. Does that sound right??
 
Ok, in the image provided, which prop is set at “fine” pitch? If these were fixed pitch props, which would I choose if I was more interested in take off performance at the expense of speed at altitude? And for the bonus, if propellers developed 100% of their thrust from the “Bernoulli” effect, would you feel any wind when standing behind the plane?
 
Ok, in the image provided, which prop is set at “fine” pitch? If these were fixed pitch props, which would I choose if I was more interested in take off performance at the expense of speed at altitude? And for the bonus, if propellers developed 100% of their thrust from the “Bernoulli” effect, would you feel any wind when standing behind the plane?

"B" is fine pitch. choose "A" for take off performance.. the rest i dont know except that you will always feel some amount of wind irregardless..
 
Concerning constant-speed-prop (henceforth known as CSP) performance and function:

We first need to divorce ourselves of the idea that the pilot is controlling, or setting a blade-pitch. The pilot selects an RPM, and then the CSP itself will continuously adjust the blade-pitch in order to maintain that RPM (constant-speed).

For example: A takeoff-roll will begin with maximum manifold-pressure, and maximum RPM (NOT finest pitch). As the airplane rolls down the runway and gains airspeed, the CSP will begin "coarsening" the blade-pitch, in order to maintain the selected RPM. As the climb initiates, the blade-pitch will change accordingly, maintaining the selected RPM. As we level off and gain airspeed, the blade-pitch will "coarsen" even further; maintaining a constant RPM... eventually becoming a relatively "coarse pitch". And if you enter a descent, the blades will likely reach max "coarseness". The blade-pitch has gone from its finest, to its coarsest, without the pilot ever touching the prop control.

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I'm going to paste part of a disscussion regarding CSP theory:
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Let's try a big-picture view of what a constant-speed prop tries to do (on most light singles):

It's not an engine RPM governor directly.. it's a hydraulic/mechanical system using engine oil-pressure to modulate the prop blade pitch. As you advance the throttle, and the engine RPMs try to increase; oil-pressure increases proportionally. This pressure forces the blade-pitch into a higher angle-of-attack, which in turn keeps the RPMs from increasing. The increased power becomes increased thrust via the steeper blade AoA, while the RPMs remain constant.

Of course the inverses is true. As you retard the throttle, the engine RPMs try to decrease, but the proportionally reduced oil-pressure allows the blade-pitch to "relax", which keeps the RPMs from decreasing.

The whole cylce is one-sided, in that an engine under load is always trying to spin faster. A constant-speed prop's governor, is more like a differential, by-pass valve, and the prop-knob is used to select the percentage of oil-pressure available to the prop mechanism. A higher percentage of pressure yields a relatively coarser pitch, and the whole setup is calibrated for the engine/prop/airframe, and its normal operating range.

The spinning prop-blade angle-of-attack itself, is what physically holds the engine (always trying to spin faster) at a selected RPM. It's kinda like pitching for airspeed; where a wing's airpseed equates to a prop's RPM. The constant-speed prop is continuously "pitching" for a set RPM, like a pilot continuously pitches for a target airspeed. The prop doesn't govern engine RPM in a restrictive manner.. it takes the excess power and translates it into thrust via increased blade AoA, instead of increased RPM.

AoA is the key term here... not blade-pitch in degrees. That's where confusion sets in (like relating max-RPM to finest-pitch). The blade-pitch in degrees can go from max to min and back again, regardless of selected RPM, without the pilot ever touching the prop-knob.



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The sensation & sound of pulling the blue knob out for lower rpms.......is like shifting to a higher gear in cruise for highway driving.



True, in that that is what you sense.. and that's what it feels like.. but that's not what happens. A constant-speed prop is always in the highest gear possible; given an airspeed and power-setting. That is what is "holding" it at a set RPM. Doesn't matter if it's a takeoff roll, or a climb, or a cruise, or a descent.. there is no "higher gear" to select.

In an automobile, the "pilot" controls engine RPM with the throttle. You add/subract "thrust" by increasing/decreasing engine RPMs, using a preset "gear". In an airplane, the pilot increases/decreases thrust via manifold-pressure, as RPMs remain constant. As an automobile's speed changes (or throttle position changes), the RPMs change too, regardless of the selected gear. As an airplane's speed changes (or throttle position changes), the RPMs remain constant.

Ponder an automobile at 55mph on a level road. Pretend it has an airplane-like throttle, set to a fixed position maintaining that 55mph. If you select a higher gear; the RPMs will indeed decrease, but the the automobile will accelerate to a higher speed, as the RPMs increase again. In order to maintain the same 55mph in the more efficient, higher gear, you must also decrease the power, (controlling speed/RPM by throttle setting).

On the other hand; when you reduce airplane RPMs for cruise, and do not change the throttle setting; the airplane will not accelerate, and will likely DEcellerate a tad, because the new "highest gear", is holding the engine at a less powerful RPM. This theory applies to the go-around scenario too.. where the prop-knob is not pushed full-forward. It's not that a finest-pitch can't be achieved because of the prop-knob setting; it's that the constantly-changing, highest-gear holds the engine to a less powerful RPM. The finest-pitch can still be theoretically achieved at lower RPMs.. ie.. a steep, slow, full-power climb... theoretical, because that gets into "over-powering" the prop (MP too high for a set RPM).


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But, there are a few howevers, that are somewhat like a gear shift. For instance, if you shove the blue knob in, with power pulled back (no load on the engine)..........before it's time too, the engine and prop will react as if you downshifted a land vehicle while going too fast. You'll be thrown forward against the seat belt, and the engine will be spinning excessive rpms.



This scenario does fit in a way.. because it turns the tables on the prop. A constant-speed prop is designed to manage RPMs when the engine is the primarmy, prop spinning force. For a constant-speed prop, in a power-off descent; it's like trying to push something with a rope. But this is outside of its normal operating range.. kinda like either failure scenario (engine or prop itself). It depends on the specific setup, and their defaults. Singles, twins, and aerobatic setups all vary. Some twins are setup to default to coarsest (feathered), regardless of the failure.. some require the feathering to be done while the prop is still spinning.. some singles will default to finest pitch, regardless of the failures, and many singles don't even allow for feathering... All of this is outside the scope of this discussion, and beyond my expertise. I get involved in these discussions to help minimize the, pitch/rpm/gear, mis-conceptions.
 
"B" is fine pitch. choose "A" for take off performance.. the rest i dont know except that you will always feel some amount of wind irregardless..

You'd want "B" for takeoff, and "A" for cruise.

The finer-pitch allows for higher, more powerful RPMs. The "bite" taken by a prop is a function of blade-pitch AND RPM...

Per my previous post.. fixed or constant-speed, the physical limiter on engine RPM, is the prop's AoA. So, if you have to rely on a fixed-pitch for takeoff, you want the engine at the more powerful RPM.
 
Good stuff, thanks Brett. Until now, I would have answered my question the way Pam did. I started to suspect I had that backwards...
 
Good discussion, I have never really been able to get my head around this topic. One of the reasons I fly the A2A J-3 so much in FSX, I suppose; just push the throttle forward and go!
 
Ok, soo, stupid question of the century.. If the prop pitch levers are selecting an rpm, then why are they named prop pitch levers?? Are they left overs from the days of variable pitched props??
 
Normally they are called prop CONTROL levers and the labels besides the levers almost always state 'high RPM' and 'low RPM'.
The british loved to use the term fine and coarse pitch. E.g. the Vickers Viscount has the prop controls labelled that way. The Rolls Royce Dart engine also had 'fuel trim' levers....
 
On the other hand; when you reduce airplane RPMs for cruise, and do not change the throttle setting; the airplane will not accelerate,


This is not what we see in fsx, and is part of the reason behind my above query. I can change manifold vacuum via the throttle all day, and not see so much as a one mile per hour change in speed, however, if i change the rpms, using the prop pitch lever the change in speed is instantaneous.. Indeed, on takeoff, the manifold pressure ( vacuum ) is restricted until you begin yur take off roll by increasing the rpm's.
 
Ok, soo, stupid question of the century.. If the prop pitch levers are selecting an rpm, then why are they named prop pitch levers?? Are they left overs from the days of variable pitched props??

For a CSP, it's just called, "Prop control" .. but yeah the old terminology sneaks in there.


There's a little, mixed terminology here, too. There are (for the sake of this discussion) three types of variable-pitch propellers.

1) Ground adjustable 2) Controlable pitch (in-flight) 3) Constant-speed

1 & 2 are where a the blade-pitch is mechaincally adjusted, or set. The pilot (or ground crew), literally set a blade-pitch in degrees (or percentage).
 
This is not what we see in fsx, and is part of the reason behind my above query. I can change manifold vacuum via the throttle all day, and not see so much as a one mile per hour change in speed, however, if i change the rpms, using the prop pitch lever the change in speed is instantaneous.. Indeed, on takeoff, the manifold pressure ( vacuum ) is restricted until you begin yur take off roll by increasing the rpm's.


I'm not sure what to say..very strange.. FSX represents a CSP quite realistically.

Load a default Baron.. try takeoffs with full throttle and try it with 20-inches manifold-pressure..

Or.. level out and set the AP to hold altitude, and then experiment with changes in MP and RPM.
 
ok, on the takeoff roll in the baron, it seems that the rpm and manifold pressire have to be increased at the sme time and the rpm is controlled by the throttle. But in mid flight, i reashed 120 knots and changed the manifold pressure with the throttle, and maintained the same speed, whereas when i changed the rpm of the engine with the prop controls, the speed immediately slowed down.. in the P-61, this behaviour goes to an even greater extreme in tht you can taxi around on the ground, steering and accelerating with nothing but the prop controls.. You cant take off with minimum MP, but you can move around..

PS, i use a duel throttle body from saitek for throttle pitch and MP. perhaps that has a little to do with it..

PPS. Sorry i'm a pain, but it's imperative that i know this. I gota write the manual for that P-61 and i need it to be right spot on..
 
Gosh.. no pain at all.. I love this stuff :jump:

Ok, I'm attaching two images.. both taken after establishing a level cruise..

The first shows a full-throttle cruise (26" is all you can get at 3000msl), with the prop-control set to 2700RPM (all the way forward)

The second shows the same airplane with only the throttle changed (MP reduced to 20")


Note that as expected, RPMs remain at 2700, but the airspeed is MUCH less.

Takeoffs are quite as cut-n-dry, because the airspeed starts out at zero.. but if you use a long runway.. and try retarding JUST the throttle well into the takeoff roll, you'll see that the RPMs remain ~2700, as MP goes down (and the aircraft accelerates more slowly).

Of all the things where MSFS falls short of realistic.. CSP function is not one of them.


I'm not sure what's going on in your setup.. maybe the control assignments are corrupt, or out of callibration. What you describe is too far from what it should be, for me to really nail it down.


EDIT: the images are in reverse order.. the one on the right is full-throttle (26")
 
Pam, I've just tried the Baron and it seems to work correctly for me, increase the throttle an MP goes up decrease it it goes down. Similarly advance the prop control and the RPM increases reduce it it goes down.
It's worth bearing in mind the CSP will only function properly over a given range i.e. where its max and min pitch will keep the RPM constant as you vary the MP, outside that reducing the throttle will reduce RPM and increasing it increase it.
 
It's worth bearing in mind the CSP will only function properly over a given range i.e. where its max and min pitch will keep the RPM constant as you vary the MP, outside that reducing the throttle will reduce RPM and increasing it increase it.

Excellent point.. and is yet another way in which the MSFS CSP is very realistic.
 
Pam, I've just tried the Baron and it seems to work correctly for me, increase the throttle an MP goes up decrease it it goes down. Similarly advance the prop control and the RPM increases reduce it it goes down.
It's worth bearing in mind the CSP will only function properly over a given range i.e. where its max and min pitch will keep the RPM constant as you vary the MP, outside that reducing the throttle will reduce RPM and increasing it increase it.

now that makes perfect sense to me as in the P-61, i have to bring the mp up to 20 inches with the rpm at 1500 before i get any response from the csp ( rpm wise )
 
Per my attached images, maybe this will help clear it up:

In both scenarios, the prop is spinnig at 2700RPM.

If you were to start at the lower MP and then go to the higher MP (advance the throttle).. the CSP will begin coarsening the blade-pitch, as needed, to "hold" the RPMs at 2700... and that translates into more thrust WITHOUT the RPMs changing.

You'd hear the engine get louder, because it's generating more HP.. but not hear it "speed up" (or see the tach increase), because that extra power is being comsumed by the higher prop-blade AoA, resulting in more thrust (higher airspeed).
 
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