Project Martin A-30 Baltimore

Hello Ivan,
I hope you enjoyed your guests!

With Yaw-Roll coupling, do you mean Adverse Yaw or perhaps Roll Moment due to ailerons? Is this because of the dihedral on the Baltimore, that the MitchellC didn´t have?
I haven´t done much flying with the plane so I don´t know what it feels like yet, but I´ll see.

I think I understood most of the Engine Tuning Tutorial, although perhaps not perfectly.
My main problem was adjusting the increased power after reducing the MitchellC´s 12.58 ft propeller blades to the Baltimore´s 11 ft ones. Obviously I didn´t want to fiddle with the propeller tables!

I did indeed adjust friction and torque graphs for the SL performance first, at 44 Mpsi and 2600 RPM, but I had to keep the Hp on the low side, like it is on the MitchellC .air file, so as not to get far too much power at altitude. Hence no 1700 Hp.

I left the critical altitude as 12500 ft as it was in the MitchellC file. I found no reference to it in any sources. I suppose I could adjust that too, but what to? The 2-speed single blower had L and H settings, depending on altitude. Maybe L below 9000 ft and H above? I don´t know, but it won´t work for CFS1 anyway. I suppose critical altitude could be anything from 10000 to 12500.

Then, the problem with adjusting friction and torque again for higher altitude was that it affects the SL performance too, so had to do it a different way. As I´d read about the boost gain in the Tuning Tutorial, I applied that, and I think it worked rather well. As you stated in your last post, you are absolutely right, it was the best thing to do, although it did take me some time to realize!

Yes, I noticed the choices you´d made, and why, as regards as regards Sea Level Power and Critical Altitude Power - they are both a little lower.
In my case I couldn´t curb a small surge in speed at critical altitude, but on the other hand, at 15000 ft performance is more correct.


I read about the basically similar Martin 167 Maryland, with its 1050 Hp engines, its tight fuselage and the same bomb-load, and how the Baltimore was developed from it. It had the same wings, but a deeper fuselage, to enable the crew to move around inside, although it was still very cramped. Then, the higher 1600 hp engine power gave better performance, even more when the engines were upgraded to 1660 hp, and finally to 1700 hp ones.

Both models seem to have been built for the East-European theater. I suppose the Americans didn´t want to use them because they were developing the Mitchell and the Marauder, which they liked more. Also I noticed that initially the designation A-30 was for the Maryland... However, I haven´t got enough time to provide a summary of the aircraft´s development history, or speculating too much about it - I don´t know enough.

Working on the .air file is still a bit confusing. I still don´t understand why we are using 284 mph max. speed at Sea-Level, as this does not appear anywhere in the sources, but I accept it gladly because you know much more about the subject than I do!

Anyway, after getting the .air file into a more or less acceptable state, I want to get on with actually building the plane. At the moment it´s only a cardboard model made with 2D templates like a toy - enough for .air file tuning, though!


Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 

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i've been following the conversation with interest, when,
"only a cardboard model made with 2D templates like a toy
"
caught my attention.
i've been thinking about doing the same with the a-20.
what scale did you use?
got any pictures to post?

hahaha...ooops.
i took your statement literally.
 
A Little Bit of History

This is the Development History as I understand it:

The Martin 167 Maryland or A-22 was developed for a USAAC competition for a Light Bomber.
The competition was won by the Douglas A-20 Havoc.

The French ordered it because it was available and could be produced quickly.
When France fell, Great Britain took over the French orders and placed more of their own.
The Maryland had no ability for the crew members to change positions or even communicate with each other.
The Baltimore was designed to cure some of these problems.
Communications was added and though there still was no ability for another crew member to take over for the pilot if needed.
Engines were also upgraded to the Wright GR-2600-A5 and later the GR-2600-A5B series which gave 1600 HP.

When Lend-Lease was adopted, the Baltimore needed to become "Lend-Lease"-able.
In order to qualify for Lend-Lease, it had to be adopted by and produced under contract to the US Military.
Thus the Baltimore Mk.III became the Martin A-30.
The engines for US military aircraft are GFE, so R-2600-19 engines of 1600 HP were substituted.
I don't know if at some point they were uprated to 1660 HP or if the description just changed.
The Mk.III to Mk.IV changed to a Martin instead of Boulton-Paul turret and different guns and the designation changed to A-30A.

Some time during the production run of the Mk.IV, the engines were upgraded to the R-2600-29 which offered 1700 HP.
The USAAF never used the A-30 series operationally and production ceased in 1944.

I do not believe the R-2600-13 was ever used in this aeroplane.
I do not know how close the R-2600-19 is to the GR-2600-A5B in detail, but the output is pretty similar.
From the 1946 edition of Jane's, I have some reference information but have not taken the time to read it.
The Sea Level speed of 284 MPH was from the footnote at the bottom of the Page 112 Data Table.
You be the judge of whether it is accurate or not.
The Polish Kagero books tend to be pretty good with a lot of primary sources but in this case, I believe at least with the engine models, there were significant errors.

Although the Baltimore and Mitchell used some of the same engines, they are not really competing designs.
The Baltimore is a Light Bomber with a maximum bomb load of 2000 pounds.
The Mitchell is a Medium Bomber and carried 2-3 times the bomb load.

This is a fairly informal summary and interpretation of what I have found thus far.

It is pretty hard to design without doing some research in detail because one has to have a target to design toward.

- Ivan.
 
if i might add my two cents...
forget about the 284mph.

as Ivan has said,
"The Sea Level speed of 284 MPH was from the footnote
at the bottom of the Page 112 Data Table."

it should also be noted,
there are two *** 284mph footnotes.
one for the Mk I, the second for the Mk II.
since you are working on the Mk V,
the 284mph footnotes are irrelevant.
 
Hello Smilo, hello Ivan!

It was getting very confusing indeed as regards the SL max. speed, wasn´t it?
Actually I´d been thinking that it would have been the earlier models which would have had the 284 mph.

Thanks for the clarification.

Well, well, OK then... so my thoughts about the MkV´s SL performance being above 300 mph are more likely, and it will not be necessary to reduce the Boost Gain after all. So, looks like it´s back to square one then. Too bad I threw out all the previous .air file trials, thinking I´d finally arrived at the correct one. Anyway, it was an interesting exercise.

Ivan, a good historical development summary - nicely done!

UPDATE:
I found my notes in the waste-bin so it wasn´t too difficult to get close to what I´d had before.
I got it better than that too, by lowering the critical altitude to 9000 ft - this reduces the power surge at altitude quite a lot, and I then kept the Boost Gain at 2.45, and corrected the Drags.
So, this is where it´s now, all at 2591 RPM aka 2600 RPM:
500 ft: 44 Mpsi, 1702 Hp, 305 mph.
9000 ft: 44 Mpsi, 1825 Hp, 317.5 mph (power surge here)
12000 ft: 44 Mpsi, 1871 Hp, 321.5 mph (power surge continues)
15000 ft: 40.2 Mpsi, 1734 Hp,320.4 mph

With the critical altitude at 9000 I´d have expected the Mpsi to drop sooner... but such is life.
It´s looking quite good for the MkV, I´d say. Would this be OK now, do you think?

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
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Hello Aleatorylamp, Smilo,

As I see it, Aleatorylamp is the author / designer and it is entirely up to him regarding data and design parameters.
We are all coming up with differing interpretations though which is interesting.

First of all, 13,500 feet is the critical altitude of the R-2600-29,

The idea of a "Fast Bomber" is a relative concept: What was it faster than?
The A-20 Boston / Havoc was truly a fast bomber but actually had less engine power with the R-2600-23 than the R-2600-29.
Late models (Boston IV) would have been good for about 340 MPH @ 10,000 feet.
The B-25 was probably good for 315 MPH @ 15,000 feet and was not known as a "Hot Ship".
Later models such as the B-25J were only good for about 285 MPH at best altitude so were much slower.
Strangely enough, the B-26 Marauder WAS known as a "Hot Ship" and was probably closer to 320 MPH at critical altitude in the early versions.
Later versions were only good for about 290 MPH at best.

The British never used this aeroplane outside the Mediterranean Theater and the USAAF never chose to use the aeroplane at all.
One has to wonder why this was the case.

I believe the reason the aircraft got the reputation for outrunning fighters was because the fighters it met were all on the slower side.
The Italian Biplanes were quite slow with the exception of the latest Fiat CR.42 with the Daimler Benz engine and those were very rare.
With the exception of the Macchi C.202 just about all the Italian Monoplanes were also fairly slow early in the war.

One thing worth noting is that 284 MPH @ Sea Level would still make it able to escape all but the latest model Spitfires.

Aleatorylamp, you need to decide how much you trust the data from the Kagero book.
In general, I believe their data is pretty good, but they DO make mistakes as I pointed out regarding engine specifications.

One last thing worthy of note if you believe the 284 MPH @ Sea Level speed for early Baltimores is that
100 HP extra on the Baltimore Mk.V would only mean about 5 MPH increase.
The extra drag of the late model Martin turret and especially for the Boulton-Paul turret would account for about the same IMO.

- Ivan.
 
Hello Ivan,

Thanks for your well-explaned e-mail.

Well, in German they say:
"Wer hat die Wahl, hat die Qual"
- i.e. He who has the choice, has the torture...

So, I´ll have to decide which .air file I´ll use!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
Hello Aleatorylamp.

Yes, you get to have fun with this one.
I have a much more interesting Engine Tuning task with the Allison V-1710-81 for the P-40N.
The numbers there REALLY don't fit well with the way CFS handles WEP so the result is certain to be a compromise solution.

- Ivan.
 
Hello Ivan,

And I thought it was I who was having difficulties...
...but maybe it´s more fun when the toil is greater because success is also greater afterwards.

As the Allison engine you are talking about has a single-stage, single-speed blower as far as I´ve been able to see, one is led to believe that CFS1 would have no problem in handling it, but from what you´ve just said, that doesn´t seem to be the case.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder what it is that CFS1 can´t handle here - is the cieling too high, the power difference to great, or is it the automatic manifold pressure regulator?

Anyway, good luck!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
Hello Aleatorylamp,

When operating above Maximum Continuous, there generally is a restriction on conditions of use or duration.
Any power setting above Maximum Continuous is not unlimited.
From a practical consideration, some engines are much more durable and can take continuous operation above this setting regardless of what the manual says.

The late model Allison engines had more supercharging and thus less tolerance for over-boosting (WEP).
I don't believe it is reasonable to allow unlimited use of the WEP power rating of 1480 HP when in theory, the take-off rating is only 1200 HP.

The problem comes when I tried to match the T-O power output and found that the WEP power output is way too high.
Both ratings are at 3000 RPM and the Manifold Pressure settings are stated in the manual so there is not much room for adjustment.
This is the first problem.

The second problem comes from the way CFS handles WEP.
CFS simply raises the Manifold Pressure when WEP is engaged.
Above the engine's critical altitude, this should have no effect because there is no additional Supercharger capacity that can be used.
Unfortunately CFS continues to let the MP increase which has the effect of raising critical altitude with WEP while in reality, it should be lower.

- Ivan.
 
Hello Ivan,

Thanks for the interesting details on the different ways that this engine was made to do what it did, overcoming certain limitations.

Also interesting will be the possible ways to be found in the .air file to make the engine do its work and overcome the simulator´s limitations!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
Builder´s block

Hello all!
Just to send a sign of life...
For the moment I must be under a spell of Builder´s Block - if I were were a writer it would be Writer´s Block. Workwise there´s a teaching job I´ve got at midday until Spetember that gets in the way of lunch and housework, but hopefully I´ll have my energy back with some free afternoons as soon as the afternoon classes take their holidays in June.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
Hello Aleatorylamp,

Regarding Builder's Block:
We have all been there. Hopefully this too shall pass.
I have been having a bunch of other issues to deal with lately as well as other things I have wanted to do.

Regarding the discussion of superchargers in the Warhawk thread, perhaps it is worth a (very) short thread of its own?
I don't know if there is really a point though because we are both pretty much on the same page and I do not believe there is a solution to be found.

- Ivan.
 
Hello Ivan,

Yes... every time I sit down and start AF99 I close it again... Thankfully this will pass in a few weeks as soon as I get my free afternoons back. I used to have free mornings, but they won´t be back until september!

Well, for superchargers, I wonder if there´s enough new information for a thread of its own. From what I´ve been able to obtain during my experiments with some of the stock CFS1 models, it seems that there is enough evidence, at least in my humble opinion, for me to implement WEP in the last 10% of the normal travel of the throttle lever. I´ll most probably do it this way for the Baltimore.

As the 90% throttle position for the limit between WEP and non-WEP is not altitude-dependant in CFS1, this can easily be marked as a reddish zone on the throttle gauge if necessary, but then, as the 90% power easily keyboard-set, this may not even be necessary.

Anyway, this way, the bug by which WEP increases power above the ceiling, disappears.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp.
 
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Supercharger in the .air file, aproximating the numbers

Hello Ivan,
I´ve been adjusting supercharger performance to try and get it closer to the values in the Specific Engine Flight Chart for the R-2600-13 engine, and I wonder if it´s getting to be satisfactory:
From this chart, data pertinent to the .air file as a guide line, is:
1) TAKE-OFF POWER
2) MAXIMUM EMERGENCY POWER
3) MAXIMUM CONTINUOUS POWER

Low blower is indicated:
- always for take-off at sea-level,
- for max. emergency power under 10500 ft,
- for max. continuous below 11000 ft.
However, the CFS1 Blower is single-speed, being either OFF or ON. In this case, OFF from 0% to 90% throttle (NON-WEP FULL POWER), or ON, FROM 91% to 100% throttle (WEP).
WEP is not implemented with F10, avoiding the above-ceiling performance distortion.


The A-30 Baltimore MkV .air file has 2.15 boost gain, and speeds adjust quite well using a 0.53 Zero Lift Drag setting. What seems to be looking a bit low are some of the the Manifold Pressure values, but this keeps the power within more correct limits at altitude, and curbs the surge between 4500 and 6700 ft and also higher up.

1) TAKE OFF POWER, (WEP)
---------------------------
SPECIFIC ENGINE FLIGHT CHART, 2600 RPM:
44.0 MPSI, 1700 HP, SEA LEVEL, LOW BLOWER
A-30 Baltimore .air file:
44.0 MPSI, 1701 HP, SEA LEVEL, 310 MPH - HP and MPSI seems fine.


2) EMERGENCY MAXIMUM, (WEP)
-------------------------------
SPECIFIC ENGINE FLIGHT CHART, 2600 RPM:
42.0 MPSI, 1700 HP, 4500 FT, LOW BLOWER
41.0 MPSI, 1700 HP, 12000 FT, HIGH BLOWER
A-30 Baltimore .air file:
44.0 MPSI 1757 HP, 4500 FT, 316 MPH - 57 HP and 2 MPSI over.
39.8 MPSI 1666 HP, 12000 FT, 320 MPH - 216 HP over and 1.2 MPSI under.

3) MAXIMUM CONTINUOUS, (NON-WEP)
--------------------------------------
SPECIFIC ENGINE FLIGHT CHART, 2400 RPM:
38.0 MPSI, 1500 HP, 6700 FT, LOW BLOWER
39.0 MPSI, 1350 HP, 15000 FT, HIGH BLOWER
A-30 Baltimore .air file:
39.7 MPSI, 1591 HP, 6700 FT, 312 MPH - 91 HP and 1.7 MPSI over.
32.4 MPSI, 1350 HP, 15000 FT, 311 MPH - HP exact, 6.6 MPSI under.

Would you say this is getting close, or are we still far out?
Thanks in advance for your time and your opinion!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
Hello Aleatorylamp,

You are inventing things at this point.
Sometimes you have to, but I believe in this case you really do not need to.

What does the actual throttle quadrant on a R-2600-13 engine actually look like?
Do any of them have the "Gated" Throttle that you are proposing?

You do realise of course that having a voluntary 90% non-WEP limitation is really no limitation at all, right?
Nothing stops the pilot from running continuous 100% power.
Perhaps that is what you are trying to do.
I personally don't like the idea because I believe that in this case WEP should have a limitation.

WEP durations vary all over the place:
The DB 601Aa engines and their derivatives had a 1 Minute Take-Off setting
The Merlins had typically 5 minute limits
The R-2800 Ws had 10 minute limits because of anti-detonant supply
The BMW 801D-2 series in later versions had pretty much as much WEP as "needed"
There really isn't a standard but from a practical standpoint, I believe there should be a restriction of some kind.

If you are really intent on doing something like a gated throttle, perhaps you should consider revising the AIR file so that the extra 10% power is controlled by the F10 key rather than a voluntary throttle setting.
Your gated throttle is really no restriction and has the same issue as the CFS implemented WEP anyway.
If you are going to increase critical altitude with WEP anyway, why not do it via the CFS mechanism?

I actually still prefer the numbers I was getting with the B-25C but mostly that is because I was tuning it to get the flavour *I* wanted.
I get the impression that your goals may be a little different.
Keep in mind that the actual flight performance is the goal here.
No one out there besides a couple fanatics will be measuring your engine output anyway.

- Ivan.
 
Hello Ivan,

Thanks for your post! I agree that there is a point here. You do realize that I value your opinion and ideas very much, and I will act accordingly. Yes, I was inventing things, but the reason was to find a viable solution - which seems not to be so viable after all! Not to worry, however. Let´s see if there´s a different way!

I know that probably no one will be measuring my engine output in reality, but that´s not really the point. I want to see if it is possible to get the engine running more correctly, closer to the real thing.


The reason I was developing this idea a bit further was because of the F10 WEP giving an exaggerated, unreal power increase at high altitudes, in fact well over 200 hp, and that this does not happen if WEP is incorporated into the normal full travel of the throttle lever. I thought I had indeed arrived at performance figures which were more realistic than with a WEP achieved through F10.

Of course this idea relies on the user´s knowledge that in reality, an excessively long use of this kind of WEP, would in reality destroy an engine. On reflection now, however, this seems to be impractical after all, because it facilitates an unreal prolonged use of WEP!

Well, I´ll see if I can find a way with F10 WEP, to control the afore-said altitude power surge in a different way! ...Possibly by further curbing boost gain values... In any case, the experiments are interesting!

Update:
The main problem with F10 WEP is that in order to get the right Manifold Pressure readings at altitude, WEP and NON-WEP require different Boost Gain entries in the .air file!
Rather frustrating, I must say! I´ll have to see if there´s a way round this... That´s why it worked so much better with the WEP-Within-Throttle-Lever.
At the moment I´m drastically reducing Emergency Power Press Change Rate parameter, which seems to be doing something. I wonder...

Thanks again, and cheers,

Aleatorylamp
 
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R-2600-13/29 Full power and/or WEP

Hello Ivan!

I´m beginning to seriously doubt whether the R-2600-13 engine actually had WEP as such, given the difficulty in implementing it in CFS1. What kind of engine WEP did the CFS1 programmers have in mind when they implemented WEP with superchargers in this simulator? Of the 3 kinds available, water injection, methanol-water injection and supercharger boost, the only one that occurs to me as being of any use here is the supercharger boost, but perhaps that is also not really the case.

The blower on the R-2600-13/29 is in use all the time, either in low or high, for all different flying powers, so the blower itself is not a WEP thing, but seems more like a general booster without any extra WEP Boost.


Perhaps this would explain why it was working so well with the 44 MPSI Max Manifold Pressure setting, without any WEP implemented.

At the moment, with 39 MPSI Max Manifold Pressure and 5 MPSI Emergency Power Manifold Pressure Increase, even the
Emergency Power Press Change Rate reduced from 0.52800 top 0.10000 is really helping only slightly.

I´m looking for more precise information regarding the use of the 1700 hp military power. From what I have seen so far, it seems to have been 5-minute Take-Off power as well as 5-minute Emergency maximum, although the 5 minute are my own conjecture, as I haven´t seen any comments regarding the length of its use.

Have you got any rather more specific views on the issue of this particular engine?
By the way, I did notice the absence of any WEP implementation in the MitchellC .air file that you sent.

Not that I want to argue... I just find this rather confusing.

Sorry to be such a pain, but I´m starting to go round in circles.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
Emergency Power Pressure Change Rate

Hello Ivan,

The investigation continues... It´s getting interesting again: Maybe there IS light at the end of the tunnel.

Halving Emergency Power Pressure Change Rate value had produced no satisfactory results, and leaving it at one tenth was better, although I didn´t understand what was happening very well, so I left it at zero, discovering that above critical altitude, WEP falls off very rapidly! This seems to point towards a possible solution.

Update:
Leaving it at zero left insufficient manifold pressure at 12000 ft, which the Data Sheet specifies at 41, so I set it at 0.064, to get this exact. Even the 1726 Hp reading is very near the 1700 Hp specified here. Nevertheless, at 15000 ft, the 0.064 entry is too low to get the specified 39 MPSI here, although the 1544 Hp reading here is very near the specified 1500 Hp reading for 15000 ft.
Then, increasing it to 0.1, I got 37 MPSI here, which is still a bit low, although the HP reading is very good. Now the 12000 ft MPSI is at 41.6, which could be acceptable. I´ll just double check the Hp readings and see what comes out.


Presumably this behaviour for this kind of booster is in reality quite correct, so this adjustment of Emergency Power Pressure Change Rate seems to be hitting the nail right on the head!

What would you say?
Have you ever experimented with this parameter?

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
Critical altitude factor

Hello again!
Of course, critical altitude being 13500 ft, is just between the two reference altitudes with their Hp and MPSI values given in the Specific Engine Flight Chart, the lower one at WEP and the higher one at Maximum Continuous:
12000 ft, 1700 Hp, 41 Mpsi Boost, WEP
15000 ft, 1350 Hp, 39 Mpsi Boost, NON-WEP
Now the thing is to find the ideal Emergency Power Pressure Change Rate value (which affects WEP) and Boost Gain value (which affects non-WEP), to get both above mentioned Mpsi values right! Not exactly a piece of cake, but not an excessive mouthfull either, I suppose.

Update:
-------
There are two more reference altitudes, also with WQEP and without WEP, namely:
4500 ft (WEP
6700 ft (NON-WEP)
...albeit with LOW-Blower (the higher altitude reference numbers were for HIGH Blower) - but we only have ONE Blower speed...
Also, There seem to be 2 types of extra boost (WEP): Take-off, with 44 Mpsi, and then Emergency Maximum, with 41 or 42 MPSI depending on altitude, but only one WEP is possible, so it will have to be with 44 Mpsi. Some values are just not possible to get, because there is only one blower speed, and one WEP. However, despite this, the results of my efforts are quite pleasing:

Performance Aims:

WEP (For take-off and Emergency Maximum):
Sea Level: 1700 Hp, 44.0 Mpsi, 305 mph or higher
4500 ft: 1700 Hp, 42.0 Mpsi
12000 ft: 1700 Hp, 41.0 Mpsi, approx 320 mph
15000 ft: 1547 Hp, 36.4 Mpsi, approx 320 mph

NON-WEP max.

6700 ft: 1500 Hp, 38.0 Mpsi
15000 ft: 1350 Hp, 39.0 Mpsi

Entered values:
Boost Gain 2.15
Max Manifold Pressure: 38
WEP Pressure Change rate: 0.0625
Manifold Pressure Increase for WEP: 6

Performance Results:
WEP:
Sea Level: 1701 Hp, 44.0 Mpsi, 310 mph
4500 ft: 1757 Hp, 44.0 Mpsi, 316 mph
6700 ft: 1785 Hp, 44.0 Mpsi, 320 mph
12000 ft: 1726 Hp, 41.0 Mpsi, 323 mph
15000 ft: 1547 Hp, 36.4 Mpsi, 318 mph

NON-WEP max:
Sea Level: 1481 Hp, 38.0 Mpsi, 302 mph
4500 ft: 1485 Hp, 38.0 Mpsi, 307 mph
6700 ft: 1558 Hp, 38.0 Mpsi, 310 mph
12000 ft: 1584 Hp, 38.0 Mpsi, 318 mph
15000 ft: 1497 Hp, 35.4 Mpsi, 317 mph

So now this is a little bit better, I would venture to say!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

P.S.
An interesting next step would be to fill in the speeds corresponding to the rest of the operating Conditions indicated in the Specific Engine Flight Chart, below the Take-Off, Emergency Maximum and Maximum Continuous, like Economical Maximum, Minimum Specific Consumption, Minimum Cruising and see what happens with the Conditions to Avoid.
A.
 
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