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Property taxes. Time to do battle.

Well Toast....

Flat tax on what?

Income, property, economic transactions, resource utilization, federal, state, city, county, parrish, roads, waterways, air, trains, regressive, progressive.....????

Easy to say, but the devil is in the details.
 
Toastmaker said:
FLAT TAX. . .

It's fair, simple to understand and easy to administer, so, naturally, we'll never have it !!
Click to expand...

The more time goes by, and worse the differentiation of our society advances between those who finance our government vice those who merely derive financial largess from it, the more I am convinced this is not only beneficial, but essential for our national harmony and survival!

Ken
 
Well when I say flat tax I mean flat tax on total income. To me it makes no sense to charge a sales tax, property tax, etc.. or for this purpose we will call them "consumption taxes." Ultimately I would prefer to just be flat taxed up front on my whole income, and then not have to worry about it after that. The way the system is structured now with the progressive taxation, and punitive taxes on things like cigarette's and such just make no sense to me. Comes down to basically everyone needing skin in the game instead of just charging the top earners, smokers, businesses, etc. I can see what you are saying though that if we just created a "flat tax" it could be expanded without some very careful wording. Kind of the problem we have now with the second amendment, and the constitution itself. That "social welfare" clause has come to mean a whole bunch of things I don't think it was ever meant to be. Teasea I can understand after going back and reading my own posts it was one of those moments where I let the politics of it all blind me.. I follow this stuff practically on a daily basis, and it is of grave concearn to me. I make a lot of decisions based on it.. I just really hope stuff turns around. I mean I really am not mad at the people that voted our current administration into office. I am glad people finally have started exercising their right to vote.
 
better to have a flat tax on goods and services instead of income. that way taxes paid are proportional to what you spend, not what you make. that way, even the welfare cases give money back. on top of that, no more worries about filing a return, or inheriting, or cashing in retirement money. you spend $$ you pay taxes.
if you arfe a heavy consumer, you pay more taxes. if you don't buy as much, you don't pay as much.
 
I agree with the flat tax on goods and services instead of income. Easier to tax illegal activity (criminals still have to spend the money they earned). It will promote savings instead of consumption.
 
Flat Tax sounds simple, which is why it's appealing.....but before you go down that road consider (and I apologize if I sound preachy....it's not my intent):


  • Most taxes we pay in the U.S. are local in the form of sales or property (state income taxes do not provide the bulk of state revenues). Those are actually the most important to us, since it's through those that our local governments provide the bulk of the services we receive.
  • Taxes are not used simply to raise revenue. They are used to influence behavior (always have been, always will be). Our current tax code in the U.S. tends to reward excess consumption. That may be a bad, thing, may not be....
  • Our various levels of government have welded themselves to certain taxes. In the great tobacco settlement, we actually created a system in which it's in state government interest for tobacco to continue to be used. That's significant amounts of cash. Now, exactly how large was that flat tax percentage you were thinking of?
  • Taxes always operate under the law of unintended consequences. Any Flat tax will operate under that law as well. You just don't know what those unintended consequences are yet...but they're there...waiting for you. People will always change their behavior to accommodate a tax.
  • Governments will simply change the verbiage. For instance, the EPA cannot levy taxes, but it can determine environmental impact fees. If you want to build here in my state of Florida, you will pay an impact fee because of your activities impact on the gopher tortoise population (my gopher tortoise is living in a burrow under my house, so he seems to be doing quite well...but I paid for him nonetheless). This fee is a tax, pure and simple. It did not go through any legislative process, but was decided by an unelected, unnamed, unaccountable lawyer in EPA.
  • The power to tax is the power to govern. One of the issues we have is that if you create one single flat tax on income.....what happens to our republican form of government? Are you willing to toss that away because you can't figure out how to prepare a tax return? Do you want more unelected, unnamed, unaccountable lawyers?
  • Tax Returns FORCE people to review what they are paying. That's why Americans are so sensitive to taxes where many Europeans are not (please much respected EURO-members, I'm not being critical here -- it's just an observation). A European style VAT tax system hides much of the tax so that the taxpayer doesn't see it. In the U.S. you see those taxes because you must prepare a return. Naturally, governments like VAT type taxing....they don't have to pay for it politically. To prove my point....how many of you know what you're paying in tax on a gallon of gas in the U.S.? It's one of the few commodities we purchase here that operates under a VAT (unless you research about 6 web sites, your answer will be wrong).
  • Those who avoid taxes now, will avoid taxes under a new system. If you're willing to operate outside the legal bounds, you will continue to do so. Mr. Cratermaker's observation is interesting, but my own opinion is that under a flat tax system, criminals will be able to continue to operate freely. Incidentally, I think that to be the case under ANY tax system. So, not unique to a flat tax option.
On that point I will halt, but I will make a prediction. We are going to see the "Flat Tax" idea move towards a "VAT" discussion (see cheezy's comment). If the President wins re-election in 2012, that will be the major policy fight of his second administration. Please, this is not a political discussion, it is just an observation on what I think he will feel he must do to ensure the legacy of the recently passed health care legislation.
 
BTW Ken,

AVGAS is actually cheaper in VAT than regular auto fuel. Imagine that!

It's $.54/gal on 100LL here in Hillsborough County, Florida.

Before you guys run out and convert your Detroit V-6 to run on AVGAS....my local airport has it a $4.66/gal.
 
Well Teasea, I see your point about people not realizing how much taxes they actually do wind up paying with a VAT because people aren't very vocal when the local sales tax goes up.

However, I still think that taxing goods and services increases the taxation of criminal wrong doings. It's easy to play hide the money with instantaneous world wide wire transfers, not so much with goods and services (of course there will always be a way to circumvent the system, you just have to make things more difficult!)

No easy answers, but the complicated mess we have now has to go.
 
TeaSea said:
Well Toast....

Flat tax on what?

Income, property, economic transactions, resource utilization, federal, state, city, county, parrish, roads, waterways, air, trains, regressive, progressive.....????

Easy to say, but the devil is in the details.
Click to expand...


Quite right - there's lot's of devils in all those details ! I was speaking specifically of converting the currently disproportionate, cumbersome, confusing and unfair federal income tax system for both individual and corporate taxpayers. I was not including local property taxes, user taxes disguised as "fees" or state income taxes (which would probably convert also).

An initial rate of 14% would allow us to pay off the national debt within 4-5 years, and the rate can then be reduced to 11% across the board. Obviously, this is the short version - "details" are plentiful !!
 
definitely i meant INSTEAD OF any sort of income tax. i am curious to hear possible scenarios where people could avoid paying the taxes if done this way. not that i doubt those ways exist, i just don't see them. i could see maybe a farmer getting by without paying taxes on food because he grew it and did't purchase it. however, he still pays taxes on items used to grow the food, like pesticides, deisel fuel, fertilizer, tools, etc.
maybe the guy who owns a junkyard gets free car parts or something, but i don't see them as avoiding anything significant.
 
This is a great thread, and I'm glad so many here are educated about the topic and have good points to bring up.

If I may:

We got away with rediculous and absurd spending in the US for a long time. We literally need to chop our government spending and general governmental size by about 50-60 percent. We have all these patch-up fixes going right now, but it's time for drastic measures. We can no longer afford to have state departments of this, that and the other random thing over staffed with employees that make 60-100k a year to do nothing that requires a specific professional skillset. It hurts, but it's true. Laws have run away from us. I just found out that where I live, carrying spark plugs is a felony offense punishable by 20 years in prison. Gimme a break.


Tigsfat's unpopular US recovery plan! It sounds horrible and ruthless, and will cause some suffering, but it's nothing compared to if we keep pretending like government and civilian money grows on trees.

STEP 1. Force homes reserved by banks onto the market. We are in yet another artificial bubble right now created by hundreds of thousands of homes in caretaker status. Most were foreclosed upon, and the banks are waiting until they are worth more to sell them. If they are forced onto the market, they will cause a crash of home values that will start deflating the dollar and set the right course of actions. We want our homes to be valuable, but they aren't anymore and bubble markets cause huge problems. False and bubble markets are not sustainable.

STEP 2: Cut government spending at the state and municipal level. Don't write IOU checks or start having furlough days, re-evaluate what you actually need and start firing people. A town of 50,000 doesn't need 100 dog catchers that make 50k a year. It doesn't need public works employees that make 80k a year to prune trees from the back of a brand new pickup truck. STOP STIMULUS CONTRACTING!! A 500K dollar contract may only help 20 people, and four of them are rich. I know this for a fact, I manage a construction company now. We don't need to constantly build dog parks for 100's of thousands of dollars a piece in upscale communities. The world is a dog park. Dog's don't care!!

step 3: Rethink what corruption is, and get serious about stopping it. Elected officials have all kinds of sneaky tricks for raising money, and 'changing the color of money'. Any Mayor (and this is currently happening all over) that tells sworn Police Officers to write as many tickets as possible to generate more funds should be prosecuted. That's using the Police against the citizens in a predatory manner. Government funds should be alotted and collected based on need, not the desires of elected officials. That's rampant now. I am not going to pay anyone 100 dollars to get a 'license' to own a dog. (which is what I'm dealing with right now)


Cycles of growth and recession are healthy, if checked. The easiest way to check them is to not let growth get out of control, like we did in the late 90's and early 2,000's. The hiccups of the last few years were exactly that: hiccups that are vital to our long term health and growth. We didn't let them happen, and we may be screwed. You can't fight healthy (small) recessions. If you do, they turn into great depressions.
 
Behavioral taxation is what I meant by "punitive" taxation. I just call it punitive because I consider them punishment for certain behaviors. IE smoking, drinking is soon to follow suit, along with the sugar tax/soda tax, and many other things on the table. I actually think the VAT debate will come to the table long before the re-election in 2012. I think after they do Cap & Trade and Immigration (conflicting reports about what is coming next, supposidly they are taking the cloak off the Cap & Trade bill on Aprl 26th). I am not suggestiong throwing the currernt progressive tax system out because the tax return is simply to hard to file, and just looking for a way to simply avoid that. My view on it is an attempt to bring everyone to the table instead of robbing from the rich/giving to the poor. Granted I currently am one of these "leeches" on the recieving end, but I would be more than happy to forgo my tax return, and pay taxes if it means my kids will not be burdened under tremendous debt. As far as collecting taxes at the local level it would be the same thing. You would have a % go to the feds, and a % go to the state. I file 2 tax returns now and I wouldn't expect it to be any different under a flat tax system. Still have tax returns, W-2's and such as things would still have to be verified. My plan wouldn't include aboloshing the IRS either, as you do need a way to keep track of all of this stuff. Everyone here has a lot of valid points, and I especially like some of Tig's ideas. At least so far here we can all peacefully disagree and put our views forward. It just will be interesting to see how things go moving forward. I have been gearing up and researching for our upcoming primaries here in FL, and pretty much know where my vote is going in November. Is all I can do and hope enough people think the same. Just have to get enough people out there and may the one with the majority behind them win.
 
Roadburner440 said:
Behavioral taxation is what I meant by "punitive" taxation. I just call it punitive because I consider them punishment for certain behaviors. IE smoking, drinking is soon to follow suit, along with the sugar tax/soda tax, and many other things on the table. I actually think the VAT debate will come to the table long before the re-election in 2012. I think after they do Cap & Trade and Immigration (conflicting reports about what is coming next, supposidly they are taking the cloak off the Cap & Trade bill on Aprl 26th). I am not suggestiong throwing the currernt progressive tax system out because the tax return is simply to hard to file, and just looking for a way to simply avoid that. My view on it is an attempt to bring everyone to the table instead of robbing from the rich/giving to the poor. Granted I currently am one of these "leeches" on the recieving end, but I would be more than happy to forgo my tax return, and pay taxes if it means my kids will not be burdened under tremendous debt. As far as collecting taxes at the local level it would be the same thing. You would have a % go to the feds, and a % go to the state. I file 2 tax returns now and I wouldn't expect it to be any different under a flat tax system. Still have tax returns, W-2's and such as things would still have to be verified. My plan wouldn't include aboloshing the IRS either, as you do need a way to keep track of all of this stuff. Everyone here has a lot of valid points, and I especially like some of Tig's ideas. At least so far here we can all peacefully disagree and put our views forward. It just will be interesting to see how things go moving forward. I have been gearing up and researching for our upcoming primaries here in FL, and pretty much know where my vote is going in November. Is all I can do and hope enough people think the same. Just have to get enough people out there and may the one with the majority behind them win.
Click to expand...

As part owner/heir on a small home that was taken from me for no legal reason I have no intention of ever owning any sort of arable/disposable property in this country again. This place is a lie and as soon as I'm able I'm leaving it. I'll be a squatter in mobile home on a state park before I'd ever consider owning property in this trainwreck ever again.

Bones
 
bottom line is, you got alotta people feedin off the spigot and they ain't about to let go just because some folks are gettin a little annoyed. fact is, there's alot more to it. john q public is, for the most part, busy with other concerns. he's busy bein a consumer. he's busy arguin over fringe issues like whether gays should marry or what the founding fathers really intended with the 1st and 2nd ammendments, climate change, piracy, etc.
meanwhile, most of us have a full belly so were not gonna be all that motivated to take the actions neccessary to create the kind of change we all accept that we really need. that's truth. we can all complain, we can come up with good ideas all day long. but there will be no real change because you cannot make real change from inside the system when the system is rigged. none of you want to what really needs to be done (including me) because that immediately makes you a domestic terrorist a treasonist, and a revolutionary.
 
cheezyflier said:
bottom line is, you got alotta people feedin off the spigot and they ain't about to let go just because some folks are gettin a little annoyed. fact is, there's alot more to it. john q public is, for the most part, busy with other concerns. he's busy bein a consumer. he's busy arguin over fringe issues like whether gays should marry or what the founding fathers really intended with the 1st and 2nd ammendments, climate change, piracy, etc.
meanwhile, most of us have a full belly so were not gonna be all that motivated to take the actions neccessary to create the kind of change we all accept that we really need. that's truth. we can all complain, we can come up with good ideas all day long. but there will be no real change because you cannot make real change from inside the system when the system is rigged. none of you want to what really needs to be done (including me) because that immediately makes you a domestic terrorist a treasonist, and a revolutionary.
Click to expand...

I agree with you 1,000 percent. I need to be careful about how I say this so I don't imply that I'll do anything crazy.....here goes......the most patriotic thing a citizen can do is take decisive action against a corrupt or nonfunctioning government. We enjoy relative peace in Western countries (and I hope it continues) but you can't ever assume things will always be great. There could be a civil war in any country, including the US, and people would be split over who the treasonists really are.
 
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