Rampant Thread Locking

S

Sieggie

SOH-CM-2025
When I joined this forum, I believed it to be a discussion about things FS not a place to for people to post Here it is come and get it followed by a lock if anything about the produce was discussed. I can understand when things get out of control, and the discussion gets heated, by all means lock the thread. The GAS thread was a viable thread where valid info was being discussed. Explain why it is forbidden to discuss the smoothness of an aircraft skin. I thought the discussion was very good about gumman putting out bumpy skins and Lockheed making there skins smooth. I would not have even guessed this could be a lockable subject matter.

Dave
 
As Roger said, I closed the thread at the request of the developr. I didnt want too when i did it, but if an original poster asks me to close the thread they started, then i am bound by various rules of courtesy to do so.. I am sorry, but thats the way it is..
Pam
 
I would not post in such a thread as this one usually - as they usually get locked fairly quickly but I am compelled.

I purchased a product from GAS very early on in my FSX days and in fact - it was soon after joining this SOH forum...

I was not as pleased with the product as I hoped I would be, based on the reviews here and I voiced (typed) my opinion without having much real world experience with the subject aircraft, nor with the labors and constraints of 3D modeling.
I even, rather churlishly, demanded a refund - which was promptly sent (I think I got the check 3 days later) by Golden Age Simulations.

By the time I got it....I was regretting my outburst and my demand more than I can say.

What the hell did I prove? Should the texture be more textury? Should the prop be bigger? or smaller? Is the canopy shaped correctly? the pilot the right scale?

I have learned many things since I have been here but probably the most important thing is that I don't have to express every opinion that comes to mind - especially when they are not generally based on any kind of experience...just what 'seems' right or wrong to me. And thats no way treat the people who actually gave something of themselves to create the 3D object for our collective benefit / enjoyment.

I have since bought from GAS the Stearman, the Stinson JR and a few other products and I have been very satisfied with them.

It doesn't make up for my part in my initial encounter with GAS - but I hope my words might prevent someone else from making the same mistake WRT good community relations that I made.
 
Good post.

When someone has an issue with a model I personally have no problem with them stating so. When it turns into an argument things start going south. That is what I saw on that thread (which until this afternoon I had not been following).

For me as a moderator the bottom line is that I am okay with making an observation about a model...but at that point leave it alone. Once it starts turning into an argument the lock is usually just a question of when.
 
After seeing the L12 thread locked earlier today I sent a PM to Spad54 (the developer) asking him to reconsider his request to have the thread locked. I hope he changes his mind as it seems like the thread was getting back on track.
 
As a former developer with a lot of releases I can see why GAS reacted how they did, having said that I don't think Pauls post was meant to be contentious, it was a simple question. With my developers hat on, I've done the same in earlier years, you sweat and slave over a model for months and as soon as its released you automatically go into defcon 3 defense mode. Any question that sits on the fence (actually any question at all if the truth be known) will automatically fall into the nit picking side and you mentally react accordingly. You simply go release blind, there are only two types of post, nit picking or praise.

I did a similar thing with the F-4 I did for AS (the first one), a customer questioned that the B (I think?) model didn't have an antenna on the leading edge of the fin, the up shot was a barrage of photos and lists of serials and on which carriers they served of all the B models with an antenna on the leading edge of the fin, which of course matched the model textures, Sqn, Modex and carrier, I felt good for a while, but not long, the guy only asked a question.

I think GAS misread Paul's post and in heightened post release mode went defensive, perfectly acceptable and quite normal to be honest, the written word is easily mis read. As noted above the tempo had leveled out.

I respect why GAS asked for it to be closed but where are people now supposed to discuss the L12, who's going to be brave enough now under the current situation to start a 'new' consumers thread on this, and what is, a very nice product?.

Posted in good faith.

Michael
 
The thread was made to announce a new release, not to question the textures, over and over again by just one person. One post would be enough but it seemed to a "dog with a bone" situation. Make your statement if you must and leave it at that.

I did those textures and thought about doing some bumps and dents in the bump map but after reviewing tons of pictures and reading more about Lockheed in those days I found that compared to most companies Lockheed took extra care having smooth panels. So my textures reflected real world work.

I also was not sure what the critic wanted. Did he want us to redo all the textures? If not, than what was his purpose?

Ok, you spend many months or years restoring a classic car and you are finally done and very proud of your work. At your first showing in a car show everyone loves the car and you get a trophy. But there is one guy that comes up and says "why did you do the paint that way, it would have looked much better base coat, clear coat?" You explain that lacquer was the way it was originally so you used that media. Later the guy comes up again and starts in about the paint, and again. Kind of dilutes the high don't it.
 
first off i develope planes for fsx as well, so i know whats involved, ok with that out the way :)

Personaly i think the issue here is the way FSX handles reflections to be honest. FSX doesnt handel them very well. If you look at the GAS lockheed you can see what i mean, you get the "streaks" at some angles which dont look real to me (which is the fault of FSX as it streatches the reflection texture). Which is show brilliantly in this screenshot from CG_1976
2011-6-25_10-16-31-198.jpg
now compare it to a real one http://www.flickr.com/photos/jackmcgo210/5500875302/sizes/l/in/photostream/

Again, not the fault of GAS at all, its just the FSX way of doing things. Now the trick to stopping it streaking and getting a more appealing look (depending on your tastes that is) is to put noise in the spec map or the bump map, it doesnt have to be a massive amount and you can still have a smooth looking aircraft, but it just breaks up the lines a bit.

If you look at this pic you can see that whilst being smooth as a baby cheek, theres still noise on the actuall panels, not dents, but noise, thats the key when doing bare metal paints for FSX planes.

0610044_91.jpg
 
Roger said:
Well Dave,
The L12a thread was locked at the behest of the developer, ok?
Click to expand...

Okay Open it. But lets keep the discourse civil. Also I would prefer like others have done that if you have an opinion and have not flown the aircraft, at least qualify your level of expertise so that your comments and observations can be judged in context.

We at GAS have attempted to advance our skills with every project and if anyone has followed us for any length of time, I think we've done a pretty fair job. We are still learning. Of the four of us 3 are licensed pilots, we all have active lives beyond what we do here. I am the project coordinator. We are for the most part all self taught. The work gets done on weekends and evenings for the most part and each project takes 4 to 6 months.

I do not mind critiques of work as long as I am not expected to capitulate to any opinion or point. We will most likely take what is written and apply it to our next project. The Boeing 247

I think we've beaten the skin wrinkle reflective texture issue to death so lets hear about other observations. Who has flown it? How does it perform. Panel layout what works what does not. There is a paint kit included and I my team would welcome another texture artist to do a repaint and perhaps add additional noise to the bump map. I'll even donate a model to a member who can demonstrate to me that they have the talent and desire to do the work. Roger knows my e-mail address.

What say folks, lets have some fun with the topic. Matter of fact I'll start a new one so we don't have to review contentious times
 
Some of the textures I did have noise, grim streaks and other blemishes, some are factory fresh and if you look at real metal freshly polished there are no specs or noise as you say.

Anything else?
 
Everyone has made good points.
As the original poster, I agree with Spad and TeiscoDelRay
Not to beat this dead texture horse any longer but one thing that stood in my mind a few years ago was when a polished silver Lockheed 12 parked on the ramp I worked at when I was a ramp rat. I remember standing by a vertical stabilizer and looking at my reflection in it. With most polished silver aircraft, your reflection is distorted a little from all the bumps/dings and imperfections in the skin. This was not the case with this Lockheed 12...My reflection was not distorted much at all, it was like looking into a mirror. I probably could have shaved with it as a mirror, it was that smooth. And that was on a very old airplane that has probably seen it's fair share of the elements, unlike one fresh from the factory. Can you picture Ingrid Bergman using that beautiful mirror skin to touch up her makeup? :) I think Teisco got the texturing very well done.

I think one thing to remember too, 'sunny daylight' lighting in FSX itself is a bit flat...it doesn't have that radiance of a real sunny day. So naturally anything that is reflected in FSX daylight is going to look a little less radiant than in real life.

The only way I could see it being bumpy is if one flew it through a few too many hailstorms. Some people like dinged, dirty or 'worn' airplanes, and thats fine, everyone has their style that they like. With the paint kit, folks are welcome to make a more 'worn' aircraft.

Anyway Paul has started a new thread on it, so lets move on over there and show off paintjobs of this fine airplane.

Cheers
TJ
 
Reflections in FSX when using the default " Global Environment Map " will cause the streaking greenish lines on the lower third of any texture they are used on .

The texture in question is a cube map with 6 faces and its designed to have one face reflect in each primary orientation , left right forward back top bottom, in the default bitmap the lower third of the left and right panels are painted with a green grassy field and that is what you see reflecting the streaks .

The way around this is to apply a custom reflect map that has the lower grass painted out and to use the diffuse alpha channel to determine the degree of reflectivity.

A quick way to look at changing the reflect effect is to rename the attached reflect map to GlobalEnv_AC_Chrome and put it in the aircrafts texture folder , the addition of the custom reflect map into the material properties will allow for fine tuning , a tip is that the lighter the color replacing the grass the more pronounced the shine from the surface , darker colors produce a buffed aluminum finish , the map provided is for a mirror finish.

Permission is granted for use of the reflect map by other devs for their projects.

Best C.J
 
Chuck_Jodry-VJPL said:
Reflections in FSX when using the default " Global Environment Map " will cause the streaking greenish lines on the lower third of any texture they are used on .

The texture in question is a cube map with 6 faces and its designed to have one face reflect in each primary orientation , left right forward back top bottom, in the default bitmap the lower third of the left and right panels are painted with a green grassy field and that is what you see reflecting the streaks .

The way around this is to apply a custom reflect map that has the lower grass painted out and to use the diffuse alpha channel to determine the degree of reflectivity.

A quick way to look at changing the reflect effect is to rename the attached reflect map to GlobalEnv_AC_Chrome and put it in the aircrafts texture folder , the addition of the custom reflect map into the material properties will allow for fine tuning , a tip is that the lighter the color replacing the grass the more pronounced the shine from the surface , darker colors produce a buffed aluminum finish , the map provided is for a mirror finish.

Permission is granted for use of the reflect map by other devs for their projects.

Best C.J
Click to expand...

That's mighty nice of you C.J. Thanks!
 
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