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Ranger Creek

Ok, my in-game settings are all maxed, so whatever meter settings that would compute to, I'm not certain. I'm not currently running any terrain mesh enhancements beyond the FSG Landclass, so basically I have default mesh and then GEX for texturing and FSG Landclass. When I set the elevations for most of my work, I look at the AFCAD setting for the rwy and set the flatten for that same elevation.

I've already run into many areas where I wanted to adjust the rwy elevations by simply changing that number in the AFCAD only to discover that it won't work since FSX obtains that rwy elevation from the original AFCAD and not the one you've modified. In order to truly change the rwy elevation to a new setting you must decompile the bgl (which is a trick just finding the one bgl that contains your airport), make the changes then recompile. . .I'm not there yet, so I use the elevation as is and adjust the flatten to match.
 
Hi Ed:

AFCAD and all other airport creation programs copy airport facilities data (leaving the original file untouched !), and then they create an "exclude" for various components of the original airport file so that it doesn't show through to the top layer... where our 3rd party version or modifications are located in the FS scenery library. :iidea:


FYI: Even though one can de-compile the default FS files and/or or edit them directly via JABBGL, those methods are an invitation to trouble for all. :173go1:

So most folks are actually always copying the airport file (without using the obscure and problematic methods some know about). :pop4:


BTW: If one has an issue with setting airport elevations so the flatten and RWYs all match for AI traffic etc., one simply makes yet another copy of the airport in one's airport creation program with no more than the base data for airport name, ICAO etc. and enters the desired Airport Reference Point (ARP) elevation into that 'Stub" file.

In short: Airport ARP, RWY and flatten elevations should all be the same; ground polys are usually placed a fraction (ex: 0.125 Ft.) above the flatten/RWY/ARP elevation for proper display without "Z-Buffer fighting".


That airport stub file is then placed into [FS install path]\Scenery\World\Scenery folder, so when FS loads up at that airport, the priority position of the airport stub file in the FS scenery library layer stack results in it being read before the default and other 3rd party airport elevation data in other files and layers pertaining to that airport; the result is we get the airport elevation we want... without resorting to tinkering with the default airport file. :engel016:


Many thanks to Peter McLelland for presenting this method to the FS community when he innovated it at FSAddon's Orcas Island (KORS) ! :applause:

http://www.fsaddon.com/download_instr_1.htm



Hope this might shed some light on that alternative airport elevation fix ! :mixedsmi:

GaryGB
 
Crusader said:
The plateau I refered to . I'm going to continue to adjust my mesh settings within FSX but if it is a Addon Mesh problem there is probably nothing I can do to correct it . I've actually gotten use to it . LOL The surrounding terrain is beautiful . (Just don't bother the bears!). Maybe someone using FSG Mesh Vers2 can take a few pics and see what they end up with .

Rich
Click to expand...

Disclaimer: I develop and market products that contain addon mesh, but my comments are not intended to be of a marketing nature.

No adjusting of mesh settings will affect what you are seeing and I'll try to explain in as few words as possible. Default terrain around airports is at 1km resolution. For the metrically challenged, that's about 3/4 of a mile between data points. That's why there are no plateaus around default airports. Addon mesh, even of the same resolution as the default CONUS 38m, will override this 1km area and introduce visual anomolies.

An incorrectly placed airport or one that is at an incorrect elevation will only worsen the plateau effect that addon mesh can cause. Probably 80% of the airports are incorrectly positioned or elevated. One "solution" offered is to cut holes into a product to let the default 1km mesh show through, but this only works when an airport is at it's proper place and elevation. Thus for about, oh say 80% of the default airports, this will not work.

If Ed needs some addon mesh to work with, I'll be happy to obligize with some links.

As a customer of one vendor's product, I was disappointed that so many of the fields I would fly to were never "fixed". I know why that is and why that offered opportunity.

I believe I have parsed my words very carefully, but I do want to say the more informed the customer can be the better their decisons. There is more I *could* say, but I will leave it at Buyer Beware when it comes to addon mesh products.
 
Thanks for that information, GaryGB!!! :applause:

I've been dabbling with a very small local airport near where I live, but the runway keeps sliding under the mesh. You're explanation just helped resolve a couple issues I have been struggling with. Now I can get back on track. :jump:
 
Hi Ed:

I just did a quick test of FSX default terrain mesh.


Slider settings used: :iidea:


1.) Mesh complexity = 100 % / Mesh resolution = 10 meters (M) / Texture resolution = 7 centimeters (cm)

2.) Mesh complexity = 0 % / Mesh resolution = 305 meters (M) / Texture resolution = 2 meters (M)

The visual difference as rendered by FSX, and the ability to do this... is self-evident. ;)


[EDITED]
As seen in the bottom row of 2 pix, objectionable visual consequences of doing this are also self evident, so another work around is desirable.


PS: FSX "default" minimum slider setting achievable for terrain mesh resolution is 305 meters (0.305 kilometers) between "rendered" elevation data points


Hope this helps ! :mixedsmi:

GaryGB
 
The question I have is can or how should I layer my scenery for ranger creek. I have megascenery earth , Taburet Ranger creek , gex ,utx , fs genesis , and scenery tech. The pictures post above show no snow where as my scenery for the same area is covered in snow including fifty % of the trees. I also have a a plateau effect on both sides of the airfield.
 
olaf1924 said:
. . . . .I have megascenery earth , Taburet Ranger creek , gex ,utx , fs genesis , and scenery tech.
Click to expand...
. . .and that, right there, is why it's basically impossible to design scenery that will work for everyone and why I don't release a lot of what I do. It looks great on my system, but once it leaves my hands it's a toss up as to whether or not it will even show on someone else's and Olaf's list of enhancements is why. When I did that scenery I was using GEX and that's it, everything else was default.
 
Hi Ed:

I think we all greatly appreciate your releases, and hope you'll keep being as productive as you have been the second half of this year. :applause:

I believe many would be disappointed if you became for any reason disheartened and subsequently less abundant with your fine contributions to the FS Community's enjoyment ! :engel016:


I would simply state in your ReadMe file(s) what FSX configuration the add-on is intended for and tested on; the end user may try it with the caveat that their results may vary... depending on what configuration settings they are using, and what add-ons they have installed.

Although Holger and others often make numerous modified versions of some of their files to accommodate a scenery working better with various other add-ons (I believe the greatest quantity of mods he once reported for one of his "freeware" add-ons was 16 !), that doesn't require you and others to do the same.

We welcome your releases "as is", and look forward to seeing more ! :ernae:

Kind Regards,

GaryGB
 
Hi Olaf:

FSG as a terrain mesh add-on is capable of generating a new set of elevation values for the valley floor below the level of Ed's airport, so it will appear upon a plateau in your FSX configuration IF FSG's elevation values are substantially "lower" than the elevation of Ed's airport flatten.


I am not certain if MegaScenery is still distributing a terrain mesh with their current very large custom photoreal landclass downloads (they used to include a 38 Meter mesh in the past with their products).


I will have to look at the Taburet Ranger Creek product to see if Raimondo also provides a terrain mesh with it (he used to include a mesh in his products too), or if he has only a large airport flatten in that package.

[EDITED]
That Raimodo Taburet add-on does indeed add a "10m_mesh.bgl" to FSX in the [Taburet Ranger Creek install path]\Scenery folder.

If the FSX mesh resolution slider was set to less than 10 Meters (enabling display of higher detail mesh ex: 9.6 Meters internal resolution), that terrain mesh BGL would definitely load with greater display priority (regardless of its location in the FSX scenery library layer stack) than the FSX default terrain mesh.

It may even take display precedence over the FSG V2 terrain mesh depending on where Justin's installer puts his mesh BGLs in the FSX folder chains, and also perhaps depending on what file-naming protocol Justin used to name his BGL file for the Mt. Rainer area. :rolleyes:



If someone with the FSG V2 terrain mesh can take a look at Ranger Creek (without any add-on airport loaded there) and determine the elevation of the valley floor at the position of the middle of the RWY, and at each end of same, that would provide the info needed for an airport designer to set their ARP, RWY, and flatten elevation to better blend into the terrain with minimal "plateau" effects.


Since airport flattens can now be created with varying elevations along an outside "extension", those lobes and peaked edges can be more subtly "brought down" to meet the elevation of the terrain surrounding the main airfield flatten.

As to the difference between the snow and trees you see in my posted screenies, I am configured in FSX with August 7, 2009 as my flight date, using only the default landclass and terrain texture sets.


FYI: Using FSG, SceneryTech, GEX "landclass" will change the displayed FSX textures; UT-USA does the same in predominatly urban areas, changing the elevation of some rivers or streams, and many lakes as well.

BTW: Those add-ons do NOT, however, provide a terrain mesh.


Hope this helps explain the differences you are seeing ! :mixedsmi:

GaryGB
 
GaryGB said:
. . . . .Since airport flattens can now be created with varying elevations along an outside "extension", those lobes and peaked edges can be more subtly "brought down" to meet the elevation of the terrain surrounding the main airfield flatten.
GaryGB
Click to expand...
I have wondered myself, in the past, if that could be done to exclude the sharp drop-offs experienced with drastic elevation changes but never knew quite how to go about it. Do you have insight into that Gary?
 
Hi Ed:

In hunting for a relatively recent thread at FSDeveloper in answer to your question about sloped flatten "extensions" or "skirts" at the edges of airports, I ran across these interesting threads which have some info on setting airport elevation and creating "stub" airport files... which might be of some incidental interest for future projects: :iidea:


http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16771&highlight=Golf-HotelDelta

http://newsite.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6649

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5226&page=2&highlight=altitude


[EDITED]
Regarding sloped flatten "extensions" or "skirts", George Davison (aka "Golf-HotelDelta" / "GHD" / "Ananda") posted some info on his approach to fitting an airport flatten into the surrounding terrain in these threads:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6827&highlight=skirt

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16087


PS: I don't believe ADE9X features this ability yet... but reportedly, SBuilderX already does.

[EDITED]
Apparently an early thread on SBuilder for FS9 by author Luis Sa' illustrates the concept of setting individual elevations for vertices on polygons (ex: a flatten); although SBuilderX has some differences, ideas for using an FSX version of that program might be extrapolated from this thread:

http://ptsim.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=299&hilit=flatten+elevation


...And thus we see in SBuilderX version 3.13 Help File, on the Contents Tab under Making Scenery With SBuilderX > Make Polygons > Polygons one can see that in the illustration for "SBuilderX Polygon Properties", individual vertex (point) elevation (altitude) can be set for a "CVX" vector polygon using "Altitude of Pt. #" fields. :naturesm:


Hope this helps ! :mixedsmi:

GaryGB
 
Hi Olaf:

I just looked at the Raimondo Taburet add-on "10m_mesh.bgl" for FSX in the [Taburet Ranger Creek install path]\Scenery folder via FSX SDK TMF Viewer.

That file does NOT contribute any terrain data to Ranger Creek for an approximately LOD 11 sized area surrounding that location due to a "mesh cut-out" as described by "LCSims" above. :icon_eek:


Thus one might conclude based on the info you provided above, that rendered terrain "anomalies" seen at Ranger Creek on your FSX configuration are likely the result of elevation data provided by your higher "10 Meter" (9.6 M) internal resolution FSG V2 add-on terrain mesh.

But more likely, FSG V2 mesh is depicting the "real world" terrain morphology accurately ...compared to what FSX default mesh can provide there. ;)



On your FSX configuration, when Ranger Creek is rendered by FSX with the FSG mesh loaded, it apparently still retains the existing "real world" terrain morphology, and has NOT yet been "modified" in the FSG V2 release to "cut a hole out" around that airport; so the local terrain morphology seen is due to FSG's mesh (which is based on higher 10 Meter resolution source data).


The Taburet mesh provides NO terrain elevation data any closer than 1-1/2 LOD 13 quads to any side of the airport (the size of its "cut-out"); so the local terrain seen is the FSX default (which is based on lower 38 meter resolution source data).

[EDITED]
It is also apparent that the "10m_mesh.bgl" Taburet "cut-out" has allowed FSX to fall back to rendering terrain mesh elevation at a FSX LOD-2 level in the "dem0101.bgl" file, as we do see the following change in elevations between coordinates (aligned) along Ed's RWY Positions, logged via FSUIPC at FSX-rendered "ground" level: :iidea:



Latitude....................Longitude...............Elevation (Meters)


Ed Wells' Ranger Creek - (Un-corrected Start Locations)

47.0094781331645 -121.532283441329 807.71875
47.0167264715033 -121.535128355026 807.71875
47.0131027777994 -121.533705555556 807.71875


Ed Wells' Ranger Creek - (Corrected Start Locations)

47.0094777777750 -121.532283333333 807.71875
47.0167277778238 -121.535127777778 807.71875
47.0131027777994 -121.533705555556 807.71875


Taburet Ranger Creek ON TOP OF Ed Wells' Ranger Creek (Ed Wells' Corrected Start Locations)

47.0094777777750 -121.532283333333 807.71875
47.0167277778238 -121.535127777778 807.71875
47.0131027777994 -121.533705555556 807.71875


FSX Default Ranger Creek ONLY - (Ed Wells' Corrected Start Locations)

47.0094777777750 -121.532283333333 798.64062500
47.0167277778238 -121.535127777778 798.48046875
47.0131027777994 -121.533705555556 801.81250000



Regardless, on your FSX configuration using FSG V2 terrain mesh, you likely have a significantly lower valley floor under the Ranger Creek airport.



BTW: Using FSX default terrain mesh without either Ed Wells' or Raimondo Taburet's Ranger Creek, elevations there are also lower than Ed's ARP/RWY/Flatten by:

-9.07812500 Meters at RWY33 ........= (-29.78378 Ft.)
-9.23828125 Meters at RWY15 ....... = (-30.30923 Ft.)
-5.90625000 Meters at RWY Center = (-19.37740 Ft.)


Consequently, we'd all see a plateau at the edge of Ed's airport; to minimize it may require a fix in the terrain mesh and/or Ed's airport ARP/RWY/Flatten elevation.

FYI: If the FSG V2 terrain mesh data depicts an even deeper valley floor, then the rendered plateau might appear even higher there on your FSX configuration.


I'm not certain whether you could "fool" FSX into loading its default terrain mesh "on top of" the FSG mesh, since the internal resolutions of mesh BGLs normally set mesh display priority regardless of mesh BGL location in the FSX scenery library layer stack.


But if you can identify the filename of the FSG V2 mesh file for that area, it would be an interesting experiment to try some file re-naming to see what happens.


Hope this helps better clarify the basis for the rendered terrain "anomaly" you see at Ranger Creek ! :mixedsmi:


GaryGB
 
Oh, I almost forgot about the FUN... here's a screenie of Taburet Ranger Creek WITH Ed's airport (it would have been rather barren without all of Ed's nice work on the ground there ! :bump:

[EDITED]
PS: Also, my posts immediately above regarding FSG Terrain Mesh were addressed to Rich (Crusader) as well as Olaf, since it is not for certain that Olaf has the FSG mesh rather than (or in addition to) the FSG land class product.


GaryGB
 
falcon409 said:
I've already run into many areas where I wanted to adjust the rwy elevations by simply changing that number in the AFCAD only to discover that it won't work since FSX obtains that rwy elevation from the original AFCAD and not the one you've modified. In order to truly change the rwy elevation to a new setting you must decompile the bgl (which is a trick just finding the one bgl that contains your airport), make the changes then recompile. . .I'm not there yet, so I use the elevation as is and adjust the flatten to match.
Click to expand...

I missed this part before, sorry. The latest version of AFX (1.08) allows you to change the airport elevation and it creates the necessary file into the \Scenery\World\scenery folder to have the change recognized.

It's incumbant upon you to see that this "stub file" gets included with the release, along with instructions for the end-user as to where to place the file.

Now off to digest Gary's writings.
 
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