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Re: Auto industry Stimulus

J

JoeW

Charter Member
Re: Auto industry Stimulus

<style></style>I did some math trying to put these figures in perspective. I'm using minutes in place of dollars...... OK!

1440 minutes = 1 Day
525,600 minutes = 1 year
1,000,000 minutes = 1.9 years

Are you ready for this?

1,000,000,000 minutes (That's 1 billion) = 1,902.5 years .............
12 billion minutes = 13,110 years. that's what they are giving the auto industry!
 
The last I heard this was a loan, not a gift, and it is covered by stock warrants to assure the value is returned to the government... now how about the 1.3 trillion dollars given to the financial "industry".

The last I heard, the financial institutions can't even tell CNN where that money went. I imagine they've created a huge pinata to distribute the cash... and they're paying it back when?

Dick
 
Scary....

Sounds like a science fiction movie..


What has happened? The books were almost balanced 8 years ago. arrghh...

:banghead:


Bill
 
Probably going to finance their "retirements" to Costa Rica...

Giving the American auto industry money won't work unless someone buys their product. Maybe they can sell them to the Japanese or Koreans! :jump:
 
Hey All,

What has happened? The books were almost balanced 8 years ago. arrghh...
Click to expand...

Power, Greed, Hubris and Ideologies meet Real World Economics

plus some other trifling little details not worth going into.

-Ed-
 
I find the American car companies to be very anti-American. (I speak of experience and study, being a former member in the auto-industry).


gm had a winning electric car, and they literally destroyed it to keep electric cars from happening. Funny how it may have been their savior at this present time. Look how Toyota builds their electric cars for the demand of the people, and are having to expand to another factory to fullfill world wide orders which are overloading their production capabilities, not to mention aid the world by way of pollutants and minimal use of fossil fuels.

Toyota seem to be more American then American companies.. I do see Ford working their tales off to make better cars that people would more appreciate, being a good competitor in the world market. GM though seem more concerned with making cars in China and selling them in Europe rather then giving their own people jobs and selling cars in America.

Granted, the jobs that auto-workers have had were far to well paying, which bleeds a corporation and economy, truth. You dont make more money then an engineer or lawyer, just installing doors all day long. That isnt right. You get paid according to your worldly value, at least that seems the common sense thing. Anyone can 'turn a bolt', but not everyone can design a uni-body or design a fuel injection system or a new form of battery. If you have a zillion bolt turners making $50.00 to $75.00 dollars an hour, and 50 people that design cars making $20.00 an hour, what kind of mess is that?


If you have an army.. And you have your foot soldiers, and your commanders, and then your general, would you pay your general the lowest amount, $20.00 an hour, and your foot soldiers $75.00 an hour?


Now, perhaps some see the reason in this... I dont. I also say that if it rains, go inside, but that is common sense. Perhaps there is logic to standing in the rain that I overlooked..

Ok.. Greed.. That would be a good reason. You would be right on that Ed.


It now seems like it needs to come to balance for the sake of survival.. Get paid realistic prices, and you continue to have food on your plate.



Bill
 
Lionheart said:
Look how Toyota builds their electric cars for the demand of the people, and are having to expand to another factory to fullfill world wide orders which are overloading their production capabilities

Toyota seem to be more American then American companies.. I do see Ford working their tales off to make better cars that people would more appreciate, being a good competitor in the world market. GM though seem more concerned with making cars in China and selling them in Europe rather then giving their own people jobs and selling cars in America.

Bill
Click to expand...

Actually, I think the current "financialocalypse" took care of Toyota's production backlog with the Prius for the time being, since they recently stopped construction on a Prius plant in the US until people started buying cars again.

Ford does have some great cars in Europe, and if they manage to bring over some of the good "hot hatchbacks" and get small diesels to the US, they'll be in great shape to actually start making money again, especially when oil prices go through the roof again.

I think the root of GM's problem is that they didn't really think on a global scale with production (focusing everything on SUV's trucks), whereas Ford has a stable of good cars in Europe that happen to be exactly what American customers are starting to demand.

Chrysler on the other hand just needs to die...
Unlike GM and Ford, Chrysler has no idea how to return to profitability, and their entire line of products consists of either horrible cars (the Sebring and Calibur), mediocre SUV's (Jeep), minivans that can't compete with Honda and Toyota's offerings, or SUV's and trucks (Dodge) that people stopped buying when gas went to $4/gallon.
 
I calculated that if I bought a GM vehicle, the profits they would make off of me would keep them running for an entire 4 seconds!
 
Chrysler on the other hand just needs to die...

AzFlyBoy
Click to expand...


Man, I would hate to see that happen. I worked for them for a year. I remember the introduction of the Ram, Intrepid, Viper, Neon.... They had a rush of highly successful Concept Cars on the show circuit that got such rave attention, that they put each of those into production and they now cover the highways..

I think 'direction' was lost when Mercedes took them over. Trying to turn Chrysler into a Mercedes product line was a bit of a mistake. Managing it may have been good, but I think they are two different kinds of cars and people. (The Germans are extreme perfectionists, and their workers create amazing workmanship, while Americans tend to not be so perfect, but can be very hard working and industrious).

An example. Chrysler was in its deathbed when Lee Iacoca took over the reigns. He brought it back to life, and the one thing that did it was the Chrysler Towncar (I think it was the Towncar, small boxy thing). It was designed to be easily made, used Renault parts, and made legendary changes to American ways of making cars. They even made it only so long so that it fit sideways on rail cars when being shipped out of plants.

The Viper was made totally possible because the French gentleman that was in charge of engineering was able to use parts from other cars to make the Viper, such as the rack and pinion, a members, etc. Thus, all they needed was the V-10 (which they got from Lamborghini), and the skin/chassi.

I think Chrysler has potential.. and the potential is in what the people want. Make a car they will love and want, and they will buy it, bottom line.

Now, make a car that can do that and is well made, and you have a hot seller and orders will go through the roof....


Now, find a way to do that, and that.. and do it affordably and have it clear profits by a good distance, and you become top dog....


:d


Here we are, fixing the worlds problems in a FS sim forum... :friday: Love it.


Bill
 
Well the Australian market targeted GM vehicles sure have a lot more visual appeal to me than the US counterparts.

(except you still have the problem with the controls on the wrongs side. Such bad QA! tsk tsk :p: )
 
Hey All,

You get paid according to your worldly value, at least that seems the common sense thing.
Click to expand...

This is absolutely fascinating.... Compare teacher salaries with sports superstar salaries and megacorporation CEO salaries and ask if common sense really does prevail.

It now seems like it needs to come to balance for the sake of survival.. Get paid realistic prices, and you continue to have food on your plate.
Click to expand...

OK so as a factory worker your undercut by cheap foreign labour who - and this is really important - live in a lower cost society than you do. Your supposed to gracefully accept that you now have - less - than the foreign worker who lives in an environment where his salary relative to the costs of what he buys is more reasonable? I'm not attempting to justify $50/hour but there is a principle involved here. For example the same shirt will be sold for a far cheaper price in China than in the US and cost the Chinese labourer a - lower - proportion of his salary than the same shirt will cost a US worker. Ones standard of living is going down whie the other's is going up. Perhaps from a historic perspective that is fair but try telling that to the worker or his family.

I would also have to question whether or not paying a factory worker $50/hour is actually more productive and useful than the salaries CEOs get. $50/hour in comparison may be a bargain - on the one hand we get a car on the other we get a recession/depression and trillions of dollars simply handed from you the taxpayer to those CEO managed corporations with no accountability past/present or likely future.

Common sense really isn't common is it.

Not trying to pick on you at all Bill but the opportunities you present for me to comment on are too good to pass up.

-Ed-
 
The assembly line was developed to allow the use of semi-skilled labor. $50+ per hour? Wish I could make make much. Especially with the fact I can kill some one if I screw up...
One of the main cash drains on the car companies is pensions. Work for 20 years, get a pension for 30+ years. Hmmm.... If effect the payrolls consist of millions of employees, of only a small fraction which actually make cars.
Unions are all that and this, but no one should be a slave under them, just like no worker should be a slave.

Oh, and they should make a car I would actually want.
 
Cratermaker said:
Well the Australian market targeted GM vehicles sure have a lot more visual appeal to me than the US counterparts.

(except you still have the problem with the controls on the wrongs side. Such bad QA! tsk tsk :p: )
Click to expand...
Na we got that sorted real early :p where I work they make the Pontiac G8 and the GXP.I really do like the manual GXP and yes the controls are on the correct side ;)
Cheers
Wozza
 
Wozza said:
and yes the controls are on the correct side ;)
Cheers
Wozza
Click to expand...

That's only cause yer upside down Wozza. :costumes:

Bill is right, Mercedes Benz was Chrysler's downfall.

There's a Chrysler dealer up in Philly that's selling brand new 300s (plus other models) for $8900.00. I've been hearing the add for the past few weeks now, and it sounds like it's for the 08 models. I imagine he's trying to get as many off the lot as he can..... the floor plan kills these guys.
 
Piglet said:
The assembly line was developed to allow the use of semi-skilled labor. $50+ per hour? Wish I could make make much. Especially with the fact I can kill some one if I screw up...
One of the main cash drains on the car companies is pensions. Work for 20 years, get a pension for 30+ years. Hmmm.... If effect the payrolls consist of millions of employees, of only a small fraction which actually make cars.
Unions are all that and this, but no one should be a slave under them, just like no worker should be a slave.

Oh, and they should make a car I would actually want.
Click to expand...


$29.00 per hour... and the new contract has GM and Ford hiring new workers at $14.00 per hour.

Non-union autoworkers in "right to work" states are paid around $22.00 per hour... I hope they are prepared for the wage cut they are going to get. They have been enjoying near union wages and benefits without the work of unionization. Now they'll get paid $12.00 per hour.

It's 30 years and a pension for union autoworkers ( and the average lifespan of an autoworker post-retirement is 3 years ).

Has anyone here been an autoworker for 30+ years, or been a union worker for the same period of time? If not, you have no idea what you are talking about concerning the skill level, commitment, or "enslavement" of hourly and salaried workers of GM, Ford or Chrysler.

As far as GM, they have reduced their hourly workforce from 450,000 to 70,000 in under 25 years. GM now makes more vehicles than they did 25 years ago. This was achieved by automation and outsourcing. As a result, GM hourly workers from Canada and the US are among the world's highest in productivity... beating their Japanese, German and Korean counterparts.

The auto industry is now struggling due to a severe world-wide recession. This include Toyota, Mercedes, Honda and Hundai. ( Volkswagon sold less than 9000 vehicles in the US for November... doesn't even pay for their ads. )

For the US government to forsake their manufacturing base in this emergency is absurd. Does anyone think the Japanese Government would let Toyota or Honda go under? Their government would not loan the money... they would shovel money at them as fast as they could to keep that industry alive.

That is why Bush loaned the automakers money, and why Obama will do the same, when they need it. And they will need it, as this crisis will not be over for years to come. Just wait for next month's unemployment figures to see the effect of autoworkers and their support labor being laid off.

The US cannot survive as "consumers" or as workers in "service industries". People of the US, as all countries, need to mine and manufacture. These are the only sources of generating wealth.


Dick
 
Rhumba,

I have been trying to formulate a reply to this string but I have decided I like your better. So I'll simply add ...

What he said!:amen:

Crash
 
and the average lifespan of an autoworker post-retirement is 3 years
Click to expand...
What? Doesn't sound like a very healthy occupation to me!:faint:
One thing I wonder,
Where were the bailouts when Studabaker, Kaiser, Nash, Packard, etc went under?
 
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