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RE: Oil in Gulf; Oh Man, another Titannic/Challenger scenario.

jmig said:
...So, you have a massive gas bubble, which is impossible to predict, rushing to the surface. It pushes the heavy cement up toward the surface with it. The operators detect this and try to pump more cement down the well, to no avail. When they realize it will blow they activate the BOPs, which fail.

Who is at fault?
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time to post that, it adds some depth to the discussion (no pun).
But I'd have thought that a failsafe device should be just that: failsafe.
Especially given the enormous impact a failure would have.
It's not as if the type of failure is unknown: it is exactly known - a well blows out, so cap it.
There are some extremely smart people in that industry - clearly they had not applied their minds to the problem in advance.

BP as well owner will bleed over this for years, and the cleanup will also take years.
Remains to be seen what impact this has on the world energy equation, too.
 
Someone sent me this today:

oil.jpg


I guess I've been wrong all these years about how we come by oil.
 
i may not know diddly squat about the industry, but still my mind forms opinions based on the little i do know, and instinct. i see the news when they tell about the failed attempts. i notice that they weren't trying to cap it off, they were trying to make a way to continue harvesting the oil from the hole they made without losing more. to me that seems irresponsible. my mind says stop damaging and then figure how to go back and get the oil.

the other part of me doesn't trust the industry. the corporate greed that we (the entire human race) that we accept really astounds me. back when gas prices were going through the roof these companies were posting the highest profits in recorded history. of course, i fully expect at this point, someone to come rushing to their defense over that statement. (even though it's 100% true) there always is. it's like a crack addict trying to convince you that the stroke he had wasn't from doing to much crack.
 
safn1949 said:
Also,think about this.....WW 1&2.How many ships went down,full of fuel and what not.Look up the figures and do a bit of math and you will see that probably millions of gallons of petrochemicals of all kinds went down.The USS Arizona still leaks oil at Pearl Harbor.

This is not to say so what,but we learn from these types of things.And the planet goes on oblivious to our presence. We are fleas on a dog,when the dog scratches,we lose.The planet will be here long after we are gone.
Click to expand...

Where's the oil? Much has evaporated, but still more lies under the Gulf like a big black blob

A little context for the BP oil spill: It isn't the Apocalypse‎

While the news has reported that this reef and that beach are "endangered"; the hoped for pictures of fouled beaches and massive fish and whale kills have not taken place.

We are not fleas on a dog, we are microbes on a planet that is not a single, living entity, but a complex community of living and non-living organisms that is able to adapt to major changes, and has endured through far worst than we can throw at it.

-James
 
cheezyflier said:
i may not know diddly squat about the industry, but still my mind forms opinions based on the little i do know, and instinct. i see the news when they tell about the failed attempts. i notice that they weren't trying to cap it off, they were trying to make a way to continue harvesting the oil from the hole they made without losing more. to me that seems irresponsible. my mind says stop damaging and then figure how to go back and get the oil.

the other part of me doesn't trust the industry. the corporate greed that we (the entire human race) that we accept really astounds me. back when gas prices were going through the roof these companies were posting the highest profits in recorded history. of course, i fully expect at this point, someone to come rushing to their defense over that statement. (even though it's 100% true) there always is. it's like a crack addict trying to convince you that the stroke he had wasn't from doing to much crack.
Click to expand...

They did try to cap the well. the problem is that the pipe from which the oil is spewing is torn off so short to the ocean floor that it can't be pinched off. The outward flow of oil under pressure keeps them from filling the well with something to stop the flow.

What they are trying to do is drill another well at an angle that will intersect the 21" well bore below the ocean floor. Cement will then be pumped into the well under high pressure sealing the well and stopping the leak.
 
cheezyflier said:
i may not know diddly squat about the industry, but still my mind forms opinions based on the little i do know, and instinct. i see the news when they tell about the failed attempts. i notice that they weren't trying to cap it off, they were trying to make a way to continue harvesting the oil from the hole they made without losing more. to me that seems irresponsible. my mind says stop damaging and then figure how to go back and get the oil.

the other part of me doesn't trust the industry. the corporate greed that we (the entire human race) that we accept really astounds me. back when gas prices were going through the roof these companies were posting the highest profits in recorded history. of course, i fully expect at this point, someone to come rushing to their defense over that statement. (even though it's 100% true) there always is. it's like a crack addict trying to convince you that the stroke he had wasn't from doing to much crack.
Click to expand...

Oil companies operate at approximately a 9.7% profit margin. That's about average. Google operates at 25% profit margin. Gas prices are due to taxes and added value on the forecourt. They make so much money because they sell so much of it, not because of extortionate mark-ups. Often you actually pay less at the pumps than it costs to produce - the difference is subsidised by the government.

And they're not trying to harvest the oil with the intention of selling it. There's a massive, highly pressurised jet of oil firing out from the well and there is no way to 'plug the hole' directly.' The prospect of funneling the oil to the surface was extremely clever. You massively reduce contamination of the ocean whilst avoiding the hurdes associated with the pressure. Shame it failed really.
 
jhefner said:
While the news has reported that this reef and that beach are "endangered"; the hoped for pictures of fouled beaches and massive fish and whale kills have not taken place.
Click to expand...
Don't worry, there is always photoshop or photos taken from other oil spills that will be billed as gulf spill photos.:rolleyes:
 
Those who say we can't harm the planet miss the point. The whole point is that we do damage to the eco systems and there for to ourselves, because we are part of it.
 
It is a sad and unfortunate event that this happened the way it did. I do not think anyone set out with any kind of malicious intent, or purposely neglected their duty for this to occur. I tend to lean toward the side of an accident like this was bound to happen. I imagine the pressure in that well bore is tremendous. The weight of 5,000ft of water is enough to implode a submarine, and for the oil to gush out like it is in the video means the pressure in that well far exceeds the overhead water pressure. It is amazing to think concrete could even hold it back to begin with..... This will affect that area for decades to come. The Exxon Valdez spill still affects Alaska, and decades later Chernobyl is still a hole in the ground. In fact they now need to build a new concrete structure over it to contain the radiation as the last one they built is crumbling to the ground and starting to let the radiation out. Also 3 mile island almost became our own version of Chernobyl, and we lucked out on that one. Energy is a dangerous business, but I will admit that I love my electronics/vehicles and such. I hope in the coming years safer alternatives are developed, but until then this is just the reality of the energy business.
 
KOM.Nausicaa said:
Those who say we can't harm the planet miss the point. The whole point is that we do damage to the eco systems and there for to ourselves, because we are part of it.
Click to expand...

Be sure and tell mother nature that; since she is devasating all that pristene land up north with that volcano....

We can stop any possible damage to the ecosystem by shutting down our modern way of life and go back to stone knives and bearskins. (Bearskins! Oops, more ecodamage....) But besides being impractical, it is reacting way out of proportion to the incident, which is my whole point.

This is like getting all upset over a single plane crash, and insisting that all planes should be grounded until we can make sure it never happens again; ignoring the fact that day in and day out, there are thousands of flights being made, and they reach their destination with no problems.

Like a plane crash, we mourn the dead, analyze what happened, and do the best we can to make sure it doesn't happen again. And like others said; realize it it can be a dangerous business, just like coal mining, airline travel and driving on the freeway; and accidents will occur. The best we can do is make them few and far between, with mininum damage when they occur; which is present state of things today. (When did the last off-shore drilling rig explode and sink? How many are presently in the Gulf of Mexico alone?)

-James
 
KOM.Nausicaa said:
Those who say we can't harm the planet miss the point. The whole point is that we do damage to the eco systems and there for to ourselves, because we are part of it.
Click to expand...

Lest we forget

There were those before us we should morn for they had not the control over their environment that we seem to have or that some think we might have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian-Triassic_extinction_event

The Permian–Triassic (P–Tr) extinction event, informally known as the Great Dying,<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-0">[1]</sup> was an extinction event that occurred 251.4 million years ago,<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Jin2000_1-0">[2]</sup><sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Bowring1998_2-0">[3]</sup> forming the boundary between the Permian and Triassic geologic periods. It was the Earth's most severe extinction event, with up to 96 percent of all marine species<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Benton_3-0">[4]</sup> and 70 percent of terrestrial vertebrate species becoming extinct; it is the only known mass extinction of insects.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Labandeira_4-0">[5]</sup><sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-sole_5-0">[6]</sup> Fifty-seven percent of all families and 83% of all genera were killed. Because so much biodiversity was lost, the recovery of life on earth took significantly longer than after other extinction events.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Benton_3-1">[4]</sup> This event has been described as the "mother of all mass extinctions".<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Erwin1993_6-0">[7]</sup>
Researchers have variously suggested that there were from one to three distinct pulses, or phases, of extinction.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-YinGSSP_7-0">[8]</sup><sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Jin2000_1-1">[2]</sup><sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Yin1992_8-0">[9]</sup> There are several proposed mechanisms for the extinctions; the earlier phase was likely due to gradualistic environmental change, while the latter phase has been argued to be due to a catastrophic event. Suggested mechanisms for the latter include large or multiple bolide impact events, increased volcanism, and sudden release of methane hydrates from the sea floor; gradual changes include sea-level change, anoxia, increasing aridity,<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-TannerLucas_9-0">[10]</sup> and a shift in ocean circulation driven by climate change.
Click to expand...
Any of this at the end sound familiar?

If you study the earth you will realize how insignificant to it we are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_evolution
 
Except that none of those species that are extinct had the power to extinct themselves. We have.
 
KOM.Nausicaa said:
Except that none of those species that are extinct had the power to extinct themselves. We have.
Click to expand...

There are many ways you can make your species extinct.

One way is to pursue policies that force many people out of work, cause massive increases in costs of living, and put the world economy into recession.

The last time the world economy went into serious recession was about eight years after World War I. I personally don't need to see a repeat to convince me we should have learned from the first example!

If you can point out environmental policies that do not raise costs of living, do not put people out of work, and do not lead to recession (in the short term or long term) then I will enthusiastically endorse them.

However, very very few of the policies urged by the environmental advocacy groups adhere to any of my requirements, and most not a single one!

Ken
 
KOM.Nausicaa said:
Except that none of those species that are extinct had the power to extinct themselves. We have.
Click to expand...

Long before that happens internal or external forces will present themselves that very well may cause man's extinction as well as most other life on earth.

From that extinction will come the rebirth of life which will continue the cycle until the nuclear fuel in the core of the earth is extinguished. Then all life will end and nothing anyone does will stop it.
 
KOM.Nausicaa said:
Those who say we can't harm the planet miss the point. The whole point is that we do damage to the eco systems and there for to ourselves, because we are part of it.
Click to expand...

One of the most alarming results of the surface clean up is the way oil has been contained to a great extent by the (for want of a better term) detergent, however, underwater imaging shows vast areas of contamination extending below the these surface holding areas.
The prognosis indicates these 'blocks' of 'oil' are sinking and will finally come to rest on the ocean floor.

'If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem' is an apt description of this situation.
 
wombat666 said:
One of the most alarming results of the surface clean up is the way oil has been contained to a great extent by the (for want of a better term) detergent, however, underwater imaging shows vast areas of contamination extending below the these surface holding areas.
The prognosis indicates these 'blocks' of 'oil' are sinking and will finally come to rest on the ocean floor.

'If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem' is an apt description of this situation.
Click to expand...

First of all the initial reports of "mushroom clouds of oil underwater" proved to be false. You can't even see the oil when it is underwater.

Secondly, nature itself releases oil all the time. The LaBrea tar pits on land are a similiar example.

The entire event and it's aftermath has never occured before. It will take awhile to sort out what the short and long term effects on the environment are. But, I think we will find they will be surprisingly small. And in the meantime, too many organizations including our own government have decided to "not let a crisis go to waste", and are blowing it way out of proportion. I am just asking for sanity, and sticking with the facts of what is going on; and not the hyperbole.

-James
 
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