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  • Please see the most recent updates in the "Where did the .com name go?" thread. Posts number 16 and 17.

    Post 16 Update

    Post 17 Warning

REQ: FSX SB2C Helldiver

Harold Buell described the Helldiver as more difficult and demanding to fly compared to the SBD and "a handfull to new pilots", but he never really complained about it personally. He also called it "the Beast". He actually said that the aircraft was in many points better than the SBD, but in the hands of a not properly trained pilot it was very unforgiving - which took a big and sad toll out of Buells unit when the SB2C was rushed into service too fast. As Helldiver pointed out, pilots had a huge success in bombing ships with it, and Buells stories (and medals...) reflect hat.
As an interesting side note, the first owner of the aforementioned book in the opening post (I bought it as used) wrote a couple of remarks and his name and rank in the book - by his handwriting I suppose he knew the SB2C first hand - and he hated it.

One remark says:

"Take down that blue star in your window
Replace it with one that is gold
your son is a helldiver driver
He'll never be thirty years old"

The other says:

"The greatest contribution to aviation was Curtiss stopping the production of aircraft!"

Just some interesting sidenotes that show how differently people think about the aircraft.

I personally don't care, it looks mean, it is mean, and I would love to have a nice FSX version of it!
I'd also like it when the "unforgivingness" of the flight model could be simulated. I like the challange to master it!


Cheers,
Mark
 
Helldiver said:
"Bill Palmer, a pilot in VB17, on board Bunker Hill, the first squadron to take the SB2C-1 into combat does refer to it as the Beast..."
Well I don't care if he called it Hop-a Long Cassidy, it was always the "2-Cee" to the rest of us.
The Dauntless, might have an eight foot advantage in wing span, but if you were ever on an active flight deck you'd appreciate the ability of folding wings. I never heard a single pilot complain about the added weight of the wing fold mechanism, any more than the weight of paint.
The SBD did it's work until the SB2C came along and established the highest kill of all Japanese shipping. It deserves an equal billing and certainly not the outrageous scorn of writers that weren't even born while the Helldivers were flying.
Click to expand...

That wasn't some "writer" being cited. It was an SB2C pilot who did the initial operational deployment. I think his first hand experience is worthy of discussion. You also do understand that the forum member who quoted the information is himself a holder of an ATP, acknowledged master of flight dynamics files for FSX, and in no way intended what he wrote to be taken as an insult.

Come on Helldiver, people are trying to be helpful here. Why must you attack everyone who tries to put things into historical context here?

Ken
 
I'm sorry Ken, and apologize but sometimes I feel that I'm a lone voice in the wilderness. Vainly trying to set the story straight about the Helldiver while I can. - The plane that everybody hates.
I have to read such crap as, "The greatest contribution to aviation was Curtiss stopping the production of aircraft!"
The SB2C did not lead to Curtiss getting out of the aircraft business. It was the largest producer of aircraft in WWII and did not have the time or resources to devote to research in jet aircraft and so sold the aircraft division to North American Aviation. It was a business decision and the Helldiver had nothing to do with it.
Why does the US Naval Museum in Pensacola have four SBD on view but not a single SB2C? They have a screwed view of the war in the Pacific.
As far as beng difficult to fly, military airplanes are not designed for comfortable flying. You think a SNJ is easy? Today's fighter aircraft are so unmanageable that they have to flown by computer.
But suffice to say that we lost six F6-Fs four F4-Us one TBF and one SB2C on one cruise. The Helldiver got lost when the new signal officer launched the plane just when the bow was going down.
So I'm sorry if I've hurt some feelings here. I'm just trying set things straight. In a couple of years it won't matter to me.

 
My deepest thanks to Roger-Wilco 66 for proposing that somebody do the Helldiver. The only one that has done the gunners ring right was Piglet in his Kingfisher. In theory we could hydraulically raise it up 10 inches. But putting your head out in a 200 plus MPH airstream is not recommended. The turtleback was lowered by the same wobble pump. The pilots were not too happy since the turbulence ruined their control over the rudder and ailerons. In addition, there were two flaps on the canopy. I think to help when shipping the guns while lowering the canopy.
Principally the Aircrewmans activitues were devoted to the radar, radios, and plotting where we were relative to the carrier.
Oh, and to keep the pilot awake.
 
It is indeed unfortunate what happens to some aircraft designs, often unwarranted. I'm afraid that in this business though, a subject has to have another "quality" to make the cut and that's commercial appeal.

We have often looked at the the "Helldiver" as a subject but don't really have enough confidence in the market to commit to making one. If somebody could guarantee that it would be as popular as say a Hellcat or P38, we'd be pushing those vertices right now, believe me.

There are other subjects that fall into the same category - the Fairey Battle, the Barracuda, the Albacore and Skua and scores more.

Usually forgotten heroes, passed over for the more glamourous "stars" like the Spitfire, P51, Hellcat and P38.

It would seem that the "Helldiver" or "2CEE" is going to remain a subject for freeware enthusiasts. Nothing wrong in that, we just need a volunteer...:engel016:
 
@ Helldiver: I hope you didn't take my quotations above personal, I just wanted to share them. I also understand your feelings about the subject, as one who has been there.
I also think that anybody who tackles this project will find it great to have someone here who has first hand experience and is willing to share this. Great opportunity, maybe one of a kind!

@ Bazzar: Of course I can't predict how the market would react to the Helldiver, but I think this aircraft is very well known out there. I knew what a Helldiver was when I was eight years old and I'm not even american. There is something about the martial name itself, I guess. If it is pre-marketed correctly ( some nice preview videos, development threads and other bruhaha ) and is up to date with the quality that e.g. Vertigo or A2A (or others) deliver, IMHO there is no reason why it shouldn't be as successful like the SBD Dauntless. Look at the P36 from Vertigo, I never understand why they did that plane, but it's an immaculate job despite the rather uneventful (in my terms) aircraft and it is worth having for the quality alone.
Then add a nice and seldom or never realised gimmick in it like droppable bombs (that explode on impact :) ) or working cannons, or a communicating gunner/navigator, then you have an addition that really puts it apart from the mass.
Maybe a scenery designer, who shall go unnamed here, will even built a FSX Phillipine 1944 or the Jima Islands scenario for it.
So, when's the release date??? :jump:

Regarding the aircraft and the gunner: I never ceased to wonder how that gunner could hit anything behind that aircraft. I also wondered when I saw the cockpit layout of the Kingfisher, same thing.


Cheers,
Mark
 
Helldiver said:
I'm sorry Ken, and apologize but sometimes I feel that I'm a lone voice in the wilderness. Vainly trying to set the story straight about the Helldiver while I can. - The plane that everybody hates.
I have to read such crap as, "The greatest contribution to aviation was Curtiss stopping the production of aircraft!"
The SB2C did not lead to Curtiss getting out of the aircraft business. It was the largest producer of aircraft in WWII and did not have the time or resources to devote to research in jet aircraft and so sold the aircraft division to North American Aviation. It was a business decision and the Helldiver had nothing to do with it.
Why does the US Naval Museum in Pensacola have four SBD on view but not a single SB2C? They have a screwed view of the war in the Pacific.
As far as beng difficult to fly, military airplanes are not designed for comfortable flying. You think a SNJ is easy? Today's fighter aircraft are so unmanageable that they have to flown by computer.
But suffice to say that we lost six F6-Fs four F4-Us one TBF and one SB2C on one cruise. The Helldiver got lost when the new signal officer launched the plane just when the bow was going down.
So I'm sorry if I've hurt some feelings here. I'm just trying set things straight. In a couple of years it won't matter to me.
Click to expand...

On the subject of the Naval Air Museum at Pensacola, I 100% agree with you! I find it criminal that the attack aircraft that put more Japanese iron at the bottom of the ocean than any other is completely unrepresented at this official Navy museum.

You are right about Curtiss, and I can add one more point. Curtiss wanted to develop new aircraft but the industry was government controlled during the war and Curtiss was told to keep churning out P-40's by the bucketload during the first two years of the war and were prevented from developing new fighters. The SB2C was the one type they did produce. After the war ended, they were at a serious competitive disadvantage due to the government's controlling actions. They were extremely flush with cash and decided to specialize in other areas.

I certainly do not hate the Helldiver. I respect the aircraft and the crews who made her a lethal factor in the war -- lethal for the enemy. The two Japanese super battleships, Musashi and Yamato were both sent to the bottom primarily by the efforts of Helldiver crews. When the IJN was butchered in the last full year of the war, it was three principle weapons that did the butchering. Submarines on the merchant fleet, Hellcats on the IJN air fleet, and Helldivers on the surface combatant fleet. Why did the Navy shortchange the aircraft's historical role? I do not know. Again, I find it criminal negligence on the Navy's part. There were certainly plenty of aircraft the Navy could have acquired, and put into the museum.

I just approach this from a scientific point of view, pilot centric. How did the plane fly? It was a handful due to its size and power. It had a number of teething problems initially. It was heavy on the controls. But it was this same size and power that allowed it to be so lethal in war. It was fast and agile and could carry a very large payload. I'm very confident that Flieger747 is approaching it from the same point of view. The Avenger was also heavy on the controls and frankly sluggish. The Helldiver was a better attack aircraft than the Avenger. It just never had a President flying it!

I would like to see this aircraft done for FSX. I know one was done for FS2004 and I'm sure you can assist again with a project for FSX.

The final thing I ask you understand is that when I discuss any aircraft I try to be historically objective. I can comment on the flying characteristics while at the same time acknowledging the aircraft's combat record. Finally, we all hope you are here a lot longer to enjoy the discussion.

Cheers,

Ken
 
Helldiver:
I sent you a PM...

Prowler
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bazzar said:
... We have often looked at the the "Helldiver" as a subject but don't really have enough confidence in the market to commit to making one. If somebody could guarantee that it would be as popular as say a Hellcat or P38, we'd be pushing those vertices right now, believe me...
Click to expand...

I don't have a crystal ball, but I reminded that Vertogo Studios just released a P-36, and nobody except warbird nuts have ever heard of that one either. So, would it "follow" that if the VS P-36 sells well, so might a well done SB2C ... ? In any event, it looks like RAZBAM may reap the rewards on this if I'm reading between the lines correctly...
 
Hey hey Some of us are P-36 nuts like the P-51 nuts. P-36 is just my speed for a warbird.
SB2C although would be another rare treasure.
 
CG_1976 said:
Hey hey Some of us are P-36 nuts like the P-51 nuts. P-36 is just my speed for a warbird.
SB2C although would be another rare treasure.
Click to expand...

Yep, I am too. I have the new P-36 and love it. I'm just commenting on the desicion of some payware outfits to model only P-51Ds and B-17Gs, on the conclusion that these are the only planes that can make any money for them. Presumably this is because they are after a market of people who have never heard of an SB2C and therefore will not buy it. I suspect that people who have never heard of an SB2C have also never heard of a P-36. And VS decided they would be able to sell a P-36. I'm hoping they make a lot of money with the P-36. Maybe that will encourage them and other payware companies to make other somewhat obscure, to non-warbird nuts like us, planes. Like the SB2C and P-61!
 
Roger Wilco, you are touching on a sore subject. You see with the broad canopy in front of you and the enormous tail behind you and the wing below you and obviously you can't point your guns straight up, really the only things you could hit was at three o'clock and nine o'clock. Since, unlike the movies, attacking aircraft don't sit out waiting for you to hit them. If lucky you might see a blur as something went by. So we'd do away with the twin .30s and get rid of the ammo and enjoy the luxury of not having the guns sticking in your back. The pilots loved the loss of extra weight.
Then we got a non-flying Admiral who asked why the 2 Cees guns were missing? He reinstated using the cursed guns. Luckily, I only had a few months under his command.
 
Helldiver, note that while I appreciate everyone who has something constructive or well researched to contribute here's posts, there are many here who value your "I was there" posts most of all. Obviously there were those of different opinions, but please don't take some folks reposts of their writing as any denegration of your contributions here.

It's one thing to read the after the fact reminiscences of authors from the comfort of a civilian pilot or sim fan's life 60 years later, and quite another to have been there first-hand.

And on this Memorial Day, we salute and thank you!
 
Prowler,
Your posts are somewhat cryptic...I'm not sure folks are quite understanding what you're getting at?

If you are saying that you are going to build one and present it for sale, my response is outstanding!

I will, as I'm sure many others will, support your efforts.
 
It would be nice to have one, but as a Brit our FAA described this aircraft as well to put it mildly bad, so we never used it in combat, however I do like the looks of this thingg so I wouldn't say no to one either!
 
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