RTWR 2014 Early News and Discussion

Some thoughts on Ed's and Dave's comments. In general, I agree that simplifying the rules is a good thing, and would significantly lower the threshold for new racers to enter the race.

Bonuses/Penalties:

I agree that it is a good idea to remove bonuses. Since all teams almost always ends up with the maximum bonus amount they don't really serve a purpose, other than to perhaps hurt teams with fewer members for the team flight events. Team flights should stay though, but, as Dave said, be required. I don't know if there should be a requirement that at least X pilots participate, to force it to be a team flight?

I also don't know what should be done about penalties for wingman transfers, I think they need to stay. What is otherwise stopping the lead pilot from aborting the leg if the wingman arrives first? But, if we have no bonus bank, should we be forced to wait out penalties, or should they be added to a "penalty bank"? With a penalty bank we would still have extra record keeping, but having to wait extends the total race time. Maybe waiting would be tolerable if the penalty was decreased to five or ten minutes, while still discouraging using a wingman transfer to gain time?

Routing / planning / strategy:

I don't agree that the pilot for each leg should be solely responsible for figuring out and deciding where to go. This is a team event, and what's important is to do well as a team. To get the best route it's most often necessary to plan several legs in advance from the current location, so the route can't be decided by the current pilot alone, it must be done in conjunction with the rest of the team. Of course, the pilot flying the leg gets a large say in where it should go, especially if the pilot e.g. would be uncomfortable with the planned destination, it would be better to take a slightly longer route through a safer airport, if it's possible.

For me, planning is creating the "grand strategy", optimizing it for the global route. As the race is now, this means creating mostly complete routes beforehand to evaluate. But most of the legs can, and often will, be altered during the race.

I like Dave's idea of a shotgun start, as it adds some variability and tactics to the start, i.e. do we head off in a general direction or wait a few extra minutes before we decide where to go?

Aircraft:

I agree that making more aircraft competitive would be good. But a handicap system would make it even more complex, as well as add to the race time. From what we understand from the committee, that has been determined to not be a good thing. Personally though, I wouldn't mind adding extra time. But, as I spoke against bonuses earlier, perhaps requiring a certain number of legs/distance be flown in slower aircraft, like the cabin class we had a few year ago.

Anyway, I think that some regulations are required, as I wouldn't like to see a race where only the P-51H is a competitive aircraft...


Wow, that post became longer than anticipated, I should probably stop now. BTW, I'm all for allowing P3D.
 
Hi all! I'm excited for this years race. I appreciate the committee seeking input on these important considerations. There have been excellent comments thus far. Here are mine:

- With the Monday holiday (at least for many in the US), my preference is to keep the race on one long weekend, but 2 weekends would be OK if needed. Anything longer than ~80 contiguous hours will result in significant pilot drop-off for our team. This is certainly doable with routing, leg distance, aircraft possibilities, and/or corridors.

- A Friday evening or afternoon start would also be very appealing, except that it falls on Valentine's day this year.

- I would be opposed to any race structure for an around the world race that doesn't actually circumnavigate the globe (e.g. same start/end location). Something very basic such as one 'best' route or even specific airport requirements (some very difficult, some VERY long legs, some on water, some notable airports, etc.) would be fun as it would put all teams flying the same route to the finish line.

- Faster and/or jet aircraft will almost certainly be necessary for some (please not all) legs, but this does open up potential for abuse and complexity... as we've witnessed in the past. Unfortunately, I think only a white list of aircraft will likely keep things equitable.

- Perhaps allow consecutive baton flights for times where pilots are very short?

- I agree with most of Dave's recommendations for simplifying the rules, record keeping, bonuses, etc. Recent years have required complex spreadsheets to keep track of it all - with the possibility for a clerical error affecting the race outcome. I don't like the S. Pole primarily because it is FSX only, but would support it being allowed if it were found to not provide a huge advantage.

- The sooner we can get race details and rules, the better! With that said, a shotgun start sounds interesting.
 
My thoughts and questions

Hello,

I would like to say first that I hope to participate in more group 'real-like' events this year; not just this one; and my one worry is that in these events, I want to see some trees and auto-generated 'schtuff' at least to some extent; if I am told to remove every tree to land at an air field at night just to 'win'; that kind of bothers me; and the fact that everyone should be on that same level of realism is something else that really bothers me in this event.

I always liked RTW when I first flew in it; then even after all the long hours it would always be the same few people flying; I am looking at this from a different point of view as this will be my last hope for being a part of what I consider an important community.

That view is one of enjoying the hobby and RTW not as a 'race' against time (!) as Ed even suggested; of course time is important, and the planes we fly are also important; and the level of flight simming ability to real-world flying is important; that is what makes the challenge; it is not about someone being better than someone else; those people up front sort of speak; well I think they are putting needless stress on themselves here; but I am not up front as it were and I probly never will be; it is not as important as 'flying a sim as good as it gets' no matter in what circumstance.

Also I think the Wingmen really need alot more appreciation and respect; they should be considered on par with the lead flyer and just as important; afterall; those wingman are also lead fliers !

For me when I land and even take off I need some amount of thinking in peace and quiet; and now with the overspeed experience in bad weather with that stupid auto pilot messin with my attitude (in more ways than one haha!!), it is important to work those transitions in a state of utter bliss !

Nuthin like landing only to see a red duenna; then yer hopes of ever flying again in a RTW race somewhat dwindle ! Sometimes we all have to learn from mistakes and as they say:"Fly what you can fly" !

Go up in all kinds of weather; push the limits then take aff about 10% or so to give you a chance to recover from a bad auto-pilot; I remember one jet leg I flew; I think it was wing; I flew for almost 2 hours; no vis; no auto pilot; no fun.

So my questions; I read where we have to fly 700nm legs? I thought they were 500nm or is it as long as you can fly for under 2 hours to not get into that negative bonus hit?

On the realism front and Duenna I have some major concerns.

Are pilots allowed to switch views to an outside view while flying? If this is the case, at least with FS9, I saw bad weather in the cockpit and blue skies in the outside view; just saying.

Can we use avionics packages in our planes that are 'STOCK' for other planes in FSX/FS9; IE I like the radio package in the Beach Baron and use it exclusively for my other planes; even the Piper Cub; there are some instances where according to the race rules that this isnt allowed; other places where it isnt mentioned.

Another thought on this line is to use a third party avionics or even nav system; one that has been tried tested and true in the race before; many people use programs like FSCommander etc; these cause lagg (or can); do pilots really need to use this stuff? If they are using it when it wasnt used in World War II then I see no problem using any stock avioncs packages that come with the simulator either; and that doesnt even cause lagg.

There are cases where the stock GPS is not to be used; and shouldnt be ! (I could be wrong on this one) We should have such a situation !

And last but not least...trees and auto-gen scenery; we all use FSX we all know what the settings are; but are they that way and who is to say someone isnt cheating and lowering everything to NIL? Duenna doesnt check this crash detection or not.

Personally; I need trees in my life; they are part of this planet we live on; does frame rate really affect time that much? If I fly offline will I get to my destination any quicker? What about those plane landing lights on the end of non-lit runways!? That is being a little specific...I am just looking for a way to see life down below when I fly in my flightsim...if we know a route...is it possible to fly a landing area in the daytime in good conditions during the race to 'area familiarize' before we land there at night in a blinding rainstorm ? Well, I am up in the air on this one; in real life it could be a toss up; we could have had time to practice it; but in reality we dont know our route; we will have never gotten to any of our destinations before hand to 'practice'; I am against this policy; it is just this sort of thing that makes the challenge what it is.

As far as when the race takes place I dont have alot of clout here I am up in the air either way (LOL); I like the idea of splitting it up over 2 weekends personally; it would allow for a more involved 'race' not to be som much of a race as a gettogether; isnt that what flightsimming is really all about?

These are the current rules: (?)

http://www.fsrtwrace.com/pdf/RTWR Special Rules_2013.pdf

I will be Live streaming my practice flights ! They will probly have frame rate loss cause of my slow upload speed but hey - I caught the Live stream bug !

http://www.twitch.tv/cdr_hawkeyez

Viper007
 
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Hi Viper,

I think the auto-gen issue was addressed in the last race at least, but not 100% sure about that. Meaning you have to have some “normal” amount of autogen scenery that allows your sim to run at reasonable frame rates. There is a lot of “honor system” here, as there is really no way to tell.

I agree this event should be about fun. Most people who participate do understand that. In every team event, some individuals will assume a leadership role. That is not a bad thing, necessarily. The race has become more complicated over the years, and some amount of management is useful. And wingmen are appreciated here!

The leg length has always had a 700 NM limit, give or take 50. Of course with the 2 Hr limitation, some slower planes cannot make 700 NM in two hours, so, yep, it's important to know your airplane before you take off.

No way to keep people from going to spot view during the leg. You have to anyway to get cool screen pics of your adventure. Not sure what you mean about bad weather inside and blue skies outside. I've never seen that.

Panels can be modified to add gauges, radios, ILS, and such. You can't use gauges like “auto land” gauges. What you can't do is alter the plane's performance, by going into the aircraft.cfg file and changing the stall speed, for example.

It's always been considered “smart racing” to check your destination airport before you launch. There are things in he sim that real life pilots don't have to deal with, like airports that are sunk into a deep ditch in the sim, or otherwise dangerous. True, in a real race you wouldn't have the chance to do that, but you would use other resources to prepare. We can't simulate to 100% accuracy what an event like this would be if done in real life.

We'll be practicing a bit more, so do jump in!
 
Hi gents.

I will provide some feedback, though I haven't flown in the race in 2 or 3 years.

I've flown 4 races total I believe, starting in 2007. I moved between the three teams and have flown with each. Members on all three were very helpful with practice, getting planes set up, tips and tricks, and all friendly, etc. What I noticed during the race though is why I switched teams and why I quit flying the race. It became a race where the normal active members of a website (team) would dictate who flew what leg and sometimes specific legs would be auto-reserved for particular team members, each year. One team had legs reserved 6-8 hours out one year and, as noted, for the small group of regulars.

I used to get off work around 12AM and so was available to cover all those hours up through say 8AM the next morning. But one team had 3 or 4 team members in Europe that also flew at that time and I was locked out from flying and in fact on Team Speak I would offer to fly a leg or ask to fly and was politely ignored, night after night. Guess who I didn't fly with the year after.

One year a younger kid, a teenager if I remember, joined the team just a few days before the race. He showed up to fly a few times and was summarily dismissed. I put forth that he should at least fly as wingman but it was obvious the team considered him unprepared and so was excluded. I said goodbye to that team. Why? Because the RULES say if you are on the team you can grab the baton and fly. It became apparent that the rules were more just 'suggestions' as was 'the spirit of the race', which if I remember correctly was to have fun.

So while you all 'say' its all in fun, everyone gets to participate, etc, it doesn't really play out that way. And don't get me wrong, I fully understand that this is THE great get together for the members of each website and you are all friends and for the most part do not exclude anyone intentionally generally. I cannot fault anyone on any of the teams for wanting to fly with and have the comraderie of your regular team mates. Fully understandable and normal I'd say.

But these things, even when unintentional, leave a bad taste and puts people off from participating again. I've talked with others who have put forth the same opinion. Notice I'm not naming teams. This isn't meant to be a bodyslam, just a nudge. This race is, in my opinion, the most fun you can have flight-simming.

--

Keep it an around the world race. It would be great to keep it a start to finish time race, but split between two weekends to deal with the realities of life isn't a bad compromise. The shotgun start is a great idea. Also, drop all bonuses, etc.

And you might try creating a 'pilot pool'. Get pilots from the various teams to fill in slots for another team so each team has enough pilots. I understand this will be quite unpopular on first thought but wouldn't it be better to keep the race healthy rather than have 25 pilots on one team and 11 on another, pushing the race itself towards extinction. Figure out which team is coming up short on pilots and transfer over a few to fill in the roster. Next year those people will fly with their regular team again and a few others can transfer over. You will find it is a lot of fun flying against your regular team-mates for a race as well.

So no offense intended here, as I said more of just a nudge. There really isn't anyone I've spoken with on any of the teams that I don't like or who isn't pleasant and generally helpful.

If its meant to be fun then ease up on the Indy 500 mentality when it comes to participation, planning, etc. If everyone is invited then act in an inviting way, even when there is a wildcard leg coming up and your 'ace' pilot just HAS to be the one to fly because we can't have some kid we just met flying this leg. My god what if we were flying to a tiny island in the middle of the ocean and he crashed? Over and over? What would happen then? The answer is of course, you'd lose the race but as with every race you will still have had a great time and will do so the next year as well. Even if you lose again.


This is much longer than I intended. And please, these are observations, not accusations. Honest feedback is all I'm offering, with malice towards none.


Hicks
 
Hey All,

Hicks one of the best posts in this thread! I'll not elaborate. I've been a part of two teams (one my first year only) and seen the good, bad and ugly.

-Ed-
 
EasyEd said:
Hey All,

Hicks one of the best posts in this thread! I'll not elaborate. I've been a part of two teams (one my first year only) and seen the good, bad and ugly.

-Ed-
Click to expand...

I was gonna comment, but wiped it instead. I didn't think it worth pointing out that just because someone is available to fly a leg doesn't make them the best choice for the team to fly the leg. It's not a slam, just a reminder that this is a TEAM event.

I'll go crawl back under my rock now.
 
Hey All,

Maddog it is a team event but all teams have strong and weak members. If it is fundamentally about Vince Lombardi's philosophy that winning isn't everything - it is the only thing. That is completely different than an approach that embraces "if you are on the team you can grab the baton and fly. It became apparent that the rules were more just 'suggestions' as was 'the spirit of the race', which if I remember correctly was to have fun."

We have all seen the evolution of this event from relatively casual to a highly competitive event in the very fastest planes in which just one crash makes you a loser. I think this is unfortunate as I think it excludes a lot of potential pilots - especially if they can never fly what they like. As for myself flying I think I am relatively capable at least in the planes I know but if someone else wants the leg I will always always let them have it no matter what their skill level. I have nothing to prove in a game - I'm fine with being a wing time to time.

-Ed-
 
Hicks said:
My god what if we were flying to a tiny island in the middle of the ocean and he crashed? Over and over? What would happen then? The answer is of course, you'd lose the race but as with every race you will still have had a great time and will do so the next year as well. Even if you lose again.
Click to expand...

We actually did that one year. SOH was in the lead and went to fly a jet leg from Bermuda to the Azores. It was quite the crashfest at Flores. Eventually after several attempts, someone managed to make it in and get the baton moving again. Still we had a great time that year.
 
I think that MD is just a little put off like the rest of us by Hicks statement.

As far as we know he has never flown with us and if he has I would like to know under what name. Certainly not anytime since 2007 on. I also know there has never been anyone since 2008 that practiced with the team that did not fly a leg. We have bent over backwards to accommodate those members who have limited time.

If he would have been a member the last three years I might have been able to sleep rather than staying up all night for days trading baton legs with Moparmike.
 
Thoughts on getting ready ...

Hello,

I am glad to have an opportunity for some redemption myself, now seeing that some items are a little clearer after them only sinking in after more than once being told; I am a slow learner but a good learner; it took a lot of amps for me to figure out what setting the scenery is supposed to be at; IE as much as your computer can handle without dropping frames; this was always what I thought but it never really sunk in because of being told 'other ways' to set scenery.

Now the part about getting people to fly; it is a LOT of Waiting and possibly not even flying on the server; to me it seems as tho there should be some kind of limits on the number of people on the server that are doing important things; the rest would be offline in the sim practicing, running the same flights, or whatever, and being on teamspeak ready and available; why ready and available: Computer Issues AND a Power outage; who knows what can come up; I think there is a rule of sorts if a pilot crashes and was lead he has to wait out a flight maybe (?); this could cause an interruption in the flight schedule; there are probly more reasons why we have many people on (Teamspeak and flying offline); the main reason is just to be there when we can and give the leaders our availability.

Even tho I have flown before; not quite as much as the die-hards; I havnt flown in a few years so I am rusty; but it can only come back if I practice; I was gonna go on the server a couple nights ago but I am working on getting the right planes I can fly loaded up and ready and am flying offline; I need to make SURE I know my router settings and all that.

I think if we dont think about who is going to fly; lt it be that if you 'CAN' fly and say you are 'READY'; you will know it; I wouldnt dare to do otherwise; even as a wingman; the team is what it is and needs to be what it is.

This is my first time with SOH, and I do need to get my Duenna setup an all; I been really trying to relax and needed it for a few years now; finally I am at ease with things in my life I dont have to worry about; that makes a difference too.

It is because this RTW seems to be the most important race because it is so long and involved, and only 5 or so major blunders can put a team out of any winnings; it's tough, and there 'IS' some pressure; after all, the crash settings are on !

I will be on the server as soon as I can...let's say this...I may be lucky to fly wing a couple times...that would be great...that is how it seems to roll in RTW...because, well, I am 'new' again...sort of.

Viper007
 
EasyEd said:
Hey All,

Maddog it is a team event but all teams have strong and weak members. If it is fundamentally about Vince Lombardi's philosophy that winning isn't everything - it is the only thing. That is completely different than an approach that embraces "if you are on the team you can grab the baton and fly. It became apparent that the rules were more just 'suggestions' as was 'the spirit of the race', which if I remember correctly was to have fun."

We have all seen the evolution of this event from relatively casual to a highly competitive event in the very fastest planes in which just one crash makes you a loser. I think this is unfortunate as I think it excludes a lot of potential pilots - especially if they can never fly what they like. As for myself flying I think I am relatively capable at least in the planes I know but if someone else wants the leg I will always always let them have it no matter what their skill level. I have nothing to prove in a game - I'm fine with being a wing time to time.

-Ed-
Click to expand...

Ed, I think you misunderstand. I have no problem with inexperienced members flying the legs but I start to wonder why we try to set up these practices to train those inexperienced members if they don't bother to show up, then they somehow find the time during the race to show up and aren't ready and whine about nobody letting them fly. Is it really fair to everyone else on the team who've put in many hours of practicing, training and prep work to simply step aside and let 'walk-on' who shows up 5 minutes before a baton transfer to carry the baton while another pilot who'se practiced the leg, has the appropriate aircraft, and has been waiting on the apron spotting for the last 2 hours just watches? I know this is supposed to be fun but how much fun is it to lose because a member decided to take his stock Cessna 180 because he didn't install or practice one of the white list aircraft beforehand, or just likes the Cessna ?

Maybe I'm just too infatuated with the competitiveness of the event, and for that I'm sorry but if you're looking at the biggest event we have every year as just another casual tour of the globe then you've missed the point of it being called a race.
 
I agree 100% with MaddogK. The first year i joined Avsim i practiced and practiced and practiced. And on my very first competitive leg both me and my wingman slammed it into the ground. But only 3 legs later i was allowed another try and i'm sure thats because the team knew i could do it based on my participation in the TEAM in the preceding weeks.
With the limited number of pilots available, especially in recent years its almost a necessity to plan several legs ahead to cover the 24 hour nature of the race. But speaking for Avsim i kno9w that everyone will happily step aside from a planned leg to allow someone else who only has a small window to fly to take a leg. I personally enjoy all the downtime chatting with the guys on teamspeak (my team mates may say otherwise hehe) and this builds the camaraderie.
And as for new guys not getting a chance we had a new guy last year and think he did more legs that anybody and in the Flores leg that willy mentioned above it was rookie who aced the leg for Avsim that probably helped us win it that year. I strongly suspect that if you're struggling the fit in any of the teams or feel your being badly treated i respectfully suggest the problem is with you and not the teams
 
The only purpose of my post was to provide feedback on getting more people to participate in the race. Its a cool event and I wouldn't want to see it end.

I did fly with all three teams and for the most part enjoyed the hell out of it.

I'm not interested in starting an argument or anything else. If the forum would like to delete this post and the last one no problem. If what I said is wholly rejected then please pull both of them.

Good luck to all three teams in the race.
 
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Willy said:
We actually did that one year. SOH was in the lead and went to fly a jet leg from Bermuda to the Azores. It was quite the crashfest at Flores. Eventually after several attempts, someone managed to make it in and get the baton moving again. Still we had a great time that year.
Click to expand...


Ahh the F word.....Flores :biggrin-new:
 
Anothe way to make the race a bit interesting would be to allow any racer to use any given legal plane only twice...

T
 
Hicks said:
The only purpose of my post was to provide feedback on getting more people to participate in the race. Its a cool event and I wouldn't want to see it end.

I did fly with all three teams and for the most part enjoyed the hell out of it.

I'm not interesting in starting an argument or anything else. If the forum would like to delete this post and the last one no problem. If what I said is wholly rejected then please pull both of them.

Good luck to all three teams in the race.
Click to expand...

No harm done, and I appologize for being crass. I'm sure we can make adjustments now that we know there's a problem.

Maybe there's room in the rules for another 'Bonus', based on how many different baton carriers a team uses.
:kilroy:
 
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