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The Staff of SOH
Russia join forces with NATO!
- Thread starter kilo delta
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Quixoticish
Charter Member
Well said Aviator32. It's nice to see a shred of common sense and forward thinking in a thread mired with paranoia and doubt.
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Aviator32
Guest
Ah I see, I thought you meant :tgun2:
I suppose you can beat the enemy by marrying them if you do it on a huge scale. Maybe that's how we should be fighting the Taliban!
I have some artist freinds who left Romania in 1968. Left Timisoara, came to the UK and just didn't go back. One of them died a few years ago and is a famous artist in Romania now. I went back to Romania with him in the late 1990's when he had a big commision in Bucharest. Hideous place.
jmig
SOH-CM-2025
Aviator and Chris, I fought alone side Francois in what was called the "Cold War". Although, for the hundreds of mem and women captured or shot while trying go get out of places like East Germany is wasn't cold.
For three years I spent every third or forth week sitting on nuclear, alert baby sitting eight nuclear devices that had enough power to kill more people than all the bombs ever dropped in WWII. I spent hours upon hours locked in a vault within a prison of an alert facility studying maps and photos of the places I was assigned to bomb, if this "Cold War" suddenly got hot.
I will always remember one target in particular. It was a large dam enclosing many square miles of water. It was situated a few miles upriver of a city of over a million people. I remember thinking, "If the blast doesn't kill these people out right, the water will." It horrified me to think I could be part of killing that many people. Yet, I would have done it, if called upon.
You two speak of paranoia and doubt in a derisive manner. You make light of another member's service as if it wasn't a real war. I recommend that you two go back and study the history of the Cold War. Read about the Cuban Missile Crises and see what paranoia really was. Read about the Doomsday Clock and how close it came to hitting midnight, several times.
Make no doubt about it, the Cold War was a real war. The USSR proved its imperestic design when it gobbled up half of Europe after WWII. It was thousands and thousands of NATO troops like Francois and pilots sitting alert with nuclear weapons aimed at Mother Russia who won that war. We kept the Russian Bear at bay until it died under its own weight.
For three years I spent every third or forth week sitting on nuclear, alert baby sitting eight nuclear devices that had enough power to kill more people than all the bombs ever dropped in WWII. I spent hours upon hours locked in a vault within a prison of an alert facility studying maps and photos of the places I was assigned to bomb, if this "Cold War" suddenly got hot.
I will always remember one target in particular. It was a large dam enclosing many square miles of water. It was situated a few miles upriver of a city of over a million people. I remember thinking, "If the blast doesn't kill these people out right, the water will." It horrified me to think I could be part of killing that many people. Yet, I would have done it, if called upon.
You two speak of paranoia and doubt in a derisive manner. You make light of another member's service as if it wasn't a real war. I recommend that you two go back and study the history of the Cold War. Read about the Cuban Missile Crises and see what paranoia really was. Read about the Doomsday Clock and how close it came to hitting midnight, several times.
Make no doubt about it, the Cold War was a real war. The USSR proved its imperestic design when it gobbled up half of Europe after WWII. It was thousands and thousands of NATO troops like Francois and pilots sitting alert with nuclear weapons aimed at Mother Russia who won that war. We kept the Russian Bear at bay until it died under its own weight.
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Aviator32
Guest
With respect, as the son of someone who served in the Royal Navy from 1954 to 1993 I don't need a history lesson about the Cold War, especially from someone in Louisiana but, thank you 
He could talk about the Cuban crises for hours but I'm blessed in that dad's mindset moved on pretty quickly after the demise of the Soviet Union and he can now see beyond the fear that was instilled in him and his colleagues over many years. It made sense for a government to have you live in fear then just as it does today but dad is clever enough to know that and acknowledge how it affected and influenced him enough to make him want to do his job to the best of his ability and to potentially risk his life.
He could talk about the Cuban crises for hours but I'm blessed in that dad's mindset moved on pretty quickly after the demise of the Soviet Union and he can now see beyond the fear that was instilled in him and his colleagues over many years. It made sense for a government to have you live in fear then just as it does today but dad is clever enough to know that and acknowledge how it affected and influenced him enough to make him want to do his job to the best of his ability and to potentially risk his life.
jmig
SOH-CM-2025
With respect as the son of someone who served in the Royal Navy from 1954 to 1993 I don't need a history lesson about the Cold War, especially from someone in Louisiana but, thank you
He could talk about the Cuban crises for hours but I'm blessed in that dad's mindset moved on pretty quickly after the demise of the Soviet Union and he can now see beyond the fear that was instilled in him and his colleagues over many years. It made sense for a government to have you live in fear then just as it does today but dad is clever enough to know that and acknowledge how it affected and influenced him enough to make him want to do his job to the best of his ability and to potentially risk his life.
Would you mind telling us what my being from Louisiana has to do with my knowledge of the era?
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Aviator32
Guest
Your knowledge of the era is coloured entirely by your nation and the part it played in the Cold war itself. It would be as balanced a view as a history lesson from a 62 year old Russian (and, I'll concede, possibly a 72 year old Englishman too!).
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned all the proxy wars that were fought during the Cold War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war
Regards,
Stratobat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war
Regards,
Stratobat
Cazzie
SOH-CM-2024
In my view, neither NATO nor the United Nations are an asset any longer, both are liabilities that the USA could rid itself of this day and time and never have to look back.
Folks, I like all things global, especially the people, the common people. But there is a time for everything and the time for the USA to think it can practice its influence over the rest of the world is passe. It is time to bring our boys back home from Iraq and Afghanistan too, they are both unwinnable wars and are costing us an arm and a leg. Some good old Constitutional Isolationism is called for, bring some industry back home and BUY American!
In my brief lifetime, I have fought in an unwinnable war and still bear mental scars that will never go away, I have watched a nation, that was once proud and productive, turn into a near third-world country with mouths enough to feed at home, let alone try and feed the rest of the world. I have seen a corrupt banking system that is in cahoots with a corrupt government make more middle-class people insolvent than in any nation since Soviet Russia. I have watched my hometown turn from a bright productive town of 55,000 citizens dwindle to a wasteland of 46,000 people, 14% of whom are unemployed and 50% who are underemployed.
It is not time for a change, it is a time to go back to what we were!
Caz
Folks, I like all things global, especially the people, the common people. But there is a time for everything and the time for the USA to think it can practice its influence over the rest of the world is passe. It is time to bring our boys back home from Iraq and Afghanistan too, they are both unwinnable wars and are costing us an arm and a leg. Some good old Constitutional Isolationism is called for, bring some industry back home and BUY American!
In my brief lifetime, I have fought in an unwinnable war and still bear mental scars that will never go away, I have watched a nation, that was once proud and productive, turn into a near third-world country with mouths enough to feed at home, let alone try and feed the rest of the world. I have seen a corrupt banking system that is in cahoots with a corrupt government make more middle-class people insolvent than in any nation since Soviet Russia. I have watched my hometown turn from a bright productive town of 55,000 citizens dwindle to a wasteland of 46,000 people, 14% of whom are unemployed and 50% who are underemployed.
It is not time for a change, it is a time to go back to what we were!
Caz
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Aviator32
Guest
You can never go back to what you were. I think that's what the voting in the mid terms pointed to - a nation that wanted to bury it's head in the sand and pretend it was the good old days again. The good old days are gone forever and it's too early to say when the good new days will arrive - maybe not in our lifetimes. I agree both the UN and Nato are now defunct and either should be replaced with something else or just scrapped. The world and the balance of power both economic and otherwise have changed beyond anything the founders of both organisations could have imagined.
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Aviator32
Guest
Indeed. Thank goodness for the Official Secrets Act.
I've finally taken issue to the concept of paranoia being thrown around in this thread. That's a bit of a stretch. I've reread all of the posts, and I see varying degrees of caution...not paranoia. Russia has major problems. It's unstable. They are missing a large part of their old nuclear inventory...oops where did it go? The Mafia is shaping the terrain, and the old guard is still there. The place is an environmental disaster, and if you really researched it you would be shocked. These are all markers to a system that is out of control.
Sure, they should be allowed to integrate, but then watched closely...not because of paranoia, but because they don't have a grip.
Sure, they should be allowed to integrate, but then watched closely...not because of paranoia, but because they don't have a grip.
Francois
FS Veteran
Well said 'Bone'.
No matter how nice it would be if we could trust our old adversaries, I am still pretty sure they have their own agenda, as do the Chinese and just about anybody else out there.
Lets keep reality firmly on the table ;-).
The world changes, for sure. On the other hand some things never change, and some things don't change for the better.
I do agree that NATO has run its course and is just costing us heaps of money. As does the EU, for that matter. Neither is good for our economies and neither does a lot of good for our security.
So yes, a change is needed. I just don't see that change to be crawling in bed with the Russians..... not without keeping a .45 under our pillow and making sure their Makarov is not loaded. We can sit at the bar, and in a conference room, maybe even have dinner, but that's where the buck stops.
Oh, and that's not paranoid. I would call it 'cautious', based on ages of experience.
No matter how nice it would be if we could trust our old adversaries, I am still pretty sure they have their own agenda, as do the Chinese and just about anybody else out there.
Lets keep reality firmly on the table ;-).
The world changes, for sure. On the other hand some things never change, and some things don't change for the better.
I do agree that NATO has run its course and is just costing us heaps of money. As does the EU, for that matter. Neither is good for our economies and neither does a lot of good for our security.
So yes, a change is needed. I just don't see that change to be crawling in bed with the Russians..... not without keeping a .45 under our pillow and making sure their Makarov is not loaded. We can sit at the bar, and in a conference room, maybe even have dinner, but that's where the buck stops.
Oh, and that's not paranoid. I would call it 'cautious', based on ages of experience.
brad kaste
Charter Member
...Well stated Francois......
Quixoticish
Charter Member
paranoia noun
/ˌpær.əˈnɔɪ.ə//ˌper-/ n
[C or U] an extreme and unreasonable feeling that other people do not like you or are going to harm or criticize you
I beg to differ Bone. I feel this definition quite aptly sums up many of the posts in this thread.
R
redriver6
Guest
oh boy...quotes from the dictionary.
when that starts to happen you know its time for......................
???
when that starts to happen you know its time for......................
???
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