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The Staff of SOH
Supermarine Spitfire PR XI update/enhanced for Fs9
- Thread starter Shessi
- Start date
Motormouse
SOH-CM-2025
There were also several different camera configurations,
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_spitfire_PR.html
Ttfn
Pete
Ubiquitous Eye in the Sky.
Shessi,
Very many thanks for weaving your digital magic over Chris's great model. The lack of a cockpit (2D or VC) has always picked away at me - and now VOILA! What is so nice, is its performance and flight handling 'straight out of the box. I did my normal acquaint flight from Cumbernauld airfield in Scotland with an eight knot cross wind. No problems and another great feeling of flying an all time classic.
Pilot's scanning head is a nice touch and gives a subtle but very important life-like visual. Like it a lot. Also like your 'Slipper Tank' add-on. Long-range sorties to Norway planned.
Paint job is really nice. Like the slightly sooty trails behind the exhaust ports.
In fact - what is there not to like with this little gem?
Low frame rates, nice to fly and a model little seen in FS2004.
Many thanks to Chris for the core model and for his permission to let Shessi polish with his inimitable touch.
Mal
Shessi,
Very many thanks for weaving your digital magic over Chris's great model. The lack of a cockpit (2D or VC) has always picked away at me - and now VOILA! What is so nice, is its performance and flight handling 'straight out of the box. I did my normal acquaint flight from Cumbernauld airfield in Scotland with an eight knot cross wind. No problems and another great feeling of flying an all time classic.
Pilot's scanning head is a nice touch and gives a subtle but very important life-like visual. Like it a lot. Also like your 'Slipper Tank' add-on. Long-range sorties to Norway planned.
Paint job is really nice. Like the slightly sooty trails behind the exhaust ports.
In fact - what is there not to like with this little gem?
Low frame rates, nice to fly and a model little seen in FS2004.
Many thanks to Chris for the core model and for his permission to let Shessi polish with his inimitable touch.
Mal
Well thank you very much Mal, kind of you write that. I will pass your comments onto Chris, who will be pleased.
And as you say it IS down to Chris, his and the guys at IL-2 SAS for their modelling and painting skills, and of course my bit of 'polishing'..ha ha. Good team work I'd say!
Cheers
Shessi
And as you say it IS down to Chris, his and the guys at IL-2 SAS for their modelling and painting skills, and of course my bit of 'polishing'..ha ha. Good team work I'd say!
Cheers
Shessi
Hi A,
No, not a P51. TBH there are loads of P51's to choose from. From payware to Fs9 specific, or converted from CFS2...enough I think!
Cheers
Shessi
Lovely model,but I find the flight dynamics are pretty wild,Real Air's Griffon Spits are easier
to handle.
The bigger rudder fitted to the XI(based on the VIII fuselage)actually raises the cross wind component to 12kts
as opposed to 9kts with the "original" rudder,so should have better authority,this doesn't seem to be the case here.
Bootfuls and slight trim of right rudder are normally enough with a Merlin Spit,but this thing is wild and very,very difficultto keep straight(you should only need +4-6 boost at about 2850-2900 RPM)to get off
The aileron authority on take-off(you hold full right until the speed comes up)seems over sensitive once she lifts off.
I only did a quick test with it,I'll take it on a better cross country and up to high altitude to see if the Merlin's
(should be a 70 series)2 speed 2 stage blower works as it should(at about 12-14 thousand feet).
to handle.
The bigger rudder fitted to the XI(based on the VIII fuselage)actually raises the cross wind component to 12kts
as opposed to 9kts with the "original" rudder,so should have better authority,this doesn't seem to be the case here.
Bootfuls and slight trim of right rudder are normally enough with a Merlin Spit,but this thing is wild and very,very difficultto keep straight(you should only need +4-6 boost at about 2850-2900 RPM)to get off
The aileron authority on take-off(you hold full right until the speed comes up)seems over sensitive once she lifts off.
I only did a quick test with it,I'll take it on a better cross country and up to high altitude to see if the Merlin's
(should be a 70 series)2 speed 2 stage blower works as it should(at about 12-14 thousand feet).
Hi Miggers,
Hear what you say. I appreciate you'er just mentioning this, but a couple of things...the Real Air Spit is from a professional software company, and you pay for their products. Both Chris and myself are not ac.cfg or airfile experts, so it is difficult to get the ac to act totally as should be, it will always be a rough-timate of true performance.
So, several ways round this, collate the correct parameters and get someone who could input your data...or get yer finger out and do one yourself...
I would love to have more realistic airfiles/ac.cfg's.
Cheers
Shessi
Hear what you say. I appreciate you'er just mentioning this, but a couple of things...the Real Air Spit is from a professional software company, and you pay for their products. Both Chris and myself are not ac.cfg or airfile experts, so it is difficult to get the ac to act totally as should be, it will always be a rough-timate of true performance.
So, several ways round this, collate the correct parameters and get someone who could input your data...or get yer finger out and do one yourself...
I would love to have more realistic airfiles/ac.cfg's.
Cheers
Shessi
Virtual versus real
Absolutely spot on Shessi. To produce reality using a PC running a now historic piece of 32 Bit programming like FS9 is not possible. REAL AIR is the only team that produces 'Wow' from real pilots who fly some of the a/c in my PC. They are the only air files that allow you to do a side-slip on finals in a cross-wind situation. Wings of Power now A2A, produced a lot of piston engined a/c that 'flew by the numbers' ie all of the cockpit instruments read the right figures for that particular engine in that particular flight regime. Flight modelling was also good but nowhere near REAL AIR.
Sometimes (well almost all of the time) I feel that I have never left the stage of the little boy holding the model a/c at arms length and imagining it swooping through the air in real life. Of course its not reality - but then in our current all pervasive virtual worlds - what is?
Thanks again Shessi for keeping the faith.
Mal
Absolutely spot on Shessi. To produce reality using a PC running a now historic piece of 32 Bit programming like FS9 is not possible. REAL AIR is the only team that produces 'Wow' from real pilots who fly some of the a/c in my PC. They are the only air files that allow you to do a side-slip on finals in a cross-wind situation. Wings of Power now A2A, produced a lot of piston engined a/c that 'flew by the numbers' ie all of the cockpit instruments read the right figures for that particular engine in that particular flight regime. Flight modelling was also good but nowhere near REAL AIR.
Sometimes (well almost all of the time) I feel that I have never left the stage of the little boy holding the model a/c at arms length and imagining it swooping through the air in real life. Of course its not reality - but then in our current all pervasive virtual worlds - what is?
Thanks again Shessi for keeping the faith.
Mal
I do understand what you're saying and you are correct.
Sorting cfg's aren't my bag at all but,I do know a couple of bods who are excellent at sorting air.cfg's out to get them really,really close if not spot on,even on fs.9.
If you guys are ok with it,I'll have a word and see what can be done to "tune" her up.
Sorting cfg's aren't my bag at all but,I do know a couple of bods who are excellent at sorting air.cfg's out to get them really,really close if not spot on,even on fs.9.
If you guys are ok with it,I'll have a word and see what can be done to "tune" her up.
Motormouse
SOH-CM-2025
Morning...
You can adjust the controls effectiveness in the Flight Tuning section of aircraft.cfg (typical one reproduced below)
increase the number for more effectiveness , decrease for less.
Each full number ie changing
Code:
rudder_effectiveness=1.0
Code:
rudder_effectiveness=2.0
Code:
rudder_effectiveness=1.0in 0.2 to say
Code:
rudder_effectiveness=1.2
Code:
[flight_tuning]
cruise_lift_scalar=1.0
parasite_drag_scalar=1.0
induced_drag_scalar=1.0
elevator_effectiveness=1.0
aileron_effectiveness=1.0
rudder_effectiveness=1.0
pitch_stability=1.0
roll_stability=1.0
yaw_stability=1.0
elevator_trim_effectiveness=1.0
aileron_trim_effectiveness=1.0
rudder_trim_effectiveness=1.0
p_factor_on_yaw =1.0
torque_on_roll =1.0
gyro_precession_on_yaw =1.0
gyro_precession_on_pitch = 1.0
hi_alpha_on_roll =1.0
hi_alpha_on_yaw =1.0
gyro_precession_on_roll =1.0ttfn
Pete
Motormouse
SOH-CM-2025
Magoo and I worked on Nigel's Avro Tutor with the air and cfg files .... I used my RW experience to get it to how I liked it ,within the confines of Microsoft programming... then Magoo dialled that into the .air file
ttfn
Pete
Right MM,you might have a job on your hands if my contact can't manage a go at it.............
Okay,I've taken it for a better sortie earlier,up for nearly and hour out of RAF Cosford.
I used modern civvy power/rpm/trim settings for an a/c that isn't fitted for combat service.
PR.XI's had the leading edge tanks and a Merlin 70 fitted,I see from the FDE we have a Merlin 63 and just the
standard two fuel tanks ahead of the cockpit.
Both PL965 and '983 have no l/e tanks,but both have a Merlin 70 fitted,pretty much the only other differences are that '965 has a "fighter"windscreen,'983 has the correct curved PR screen making '983 just that little bit more "slippery"(the Spit XI was a very aerodynamically smooth aeroplane as Spitfires go)
Fuel load was 50%,pilot(bit of a fatboy
)/payload was 200lbs.
Brakes off started with +4 boost and 3000 rpm and a couple of notches on the rudder trim,opening up to +6 as the speed came up to 50+kts ,the swing is more catchable using that technique,unstick at about 95,u/c up and hood shut at 100',come back to +4 and 2400revs gets you a nice ROC at about 1500 fpm,pretty much on the money there.
Cruise settings are +2 and 1850 gives 200kts/230mph,again pretty much on the money
Elevator trim is extremely sensitive,Spits are supposed to be easy to trim out hands off,but this thing porpoises
about between +500 and -500 feet .
The cockpit trim wheel doesn't seem to move and has no effect.
Apart from that,general handling isn't bad.
Flying the circuit and approach though......(it does sideslip BTW).
The PR.XI being pretty slippery,(around 10-15kts faster than a IX across the speed range),tends to fly the circuit abit faster than say a Mk.IX or VIII,so normally the boost/prop revs have to be set a bit lower with the run and break at -1 boost and 2000 rpm to come down below the 160 kt limit
for flap and u/c extension,then down to -4 and 2000 rpm for the circuit which should give you 120kts for the turn onto finals then once you've turned in to get down to 85 for touch down.
That isn't the case here,I had to use -1 to +1 boost to maintain 105kts on finals to touch down just past the keys,
Spits can and will float a bit,but this has a fair rate of sink(drag/lift scalar?).
Three points do give a nice "Spitfire Bounce" though.
Also,why has it incremental flaps with a horrid grinding sound? Spit flaps are air operated and are either up or down.
The oleos need stiffening up a bit too,it wobbles about on the ground like a drunk,but,but,above 12k the boost
doesn't drop off,so the two speed two stage blower is working correctly.
That's all for now folks.
Okay,I've taken it for a better sortie earlier,up for nearly and hour out of RAF Cosford.
I used modern civvy power/rpm/trim settings for an a/c that isn't fitted for combat service.
PR.XI's had the leading edge tanks and a Merlin 70 fitted,I see from the FDE we have a Merlin 63 and just the
standard two fuel tanks ahead of the cockpit.
Both PL965 and '983 have no l/e tanks,but both have a Merlin 70 fitted,pretty much the only other differences are that '965 has a "fighter"windscreen,'983 has the correct curved PR screen making '983 just that little bit more "slippery"(the Spit XI was a very aerodynamically smooth aeroplane as Spitfires go)
Fuel load was 50%,pilot(bit of a fatboy
)/payload was 200lbs.Brakes off started with +4 boost and 3000 rpm and a couple of notches on the rudder trim,opening up to +6 as the speed came up to 50+kts ,the swing is more catchable using that technique,unstick at about 95,u/c up and hood shut at 100',come back to +4 and 2400revs gets you a nice ROC at about 1500 fpm,pretty much on the money there.
Cruise settings are +2 and 1850 gives 200kts/230mph,again pretty much on the money
Elevator trim is extremely sensitive,Spits are supposed to be easy to trim out hands off,but this thing porpoises
about between +500 and -500 feet .
The cockpit trim wheel doesn't seem to move and has no effect.
Apart from that,general handling isn't bad.
Flying the circuit and approach though......(it does sideslip BTW).
The PR.XI being pretty slippery,(around 10-15kts faster than a IX across the speed range),tends to fly the circuit abit faster than say a Mk.IX or VIII,so normally the boost/prop revs have to be set a bit lower with the run and break at -1 boost and 2000 rpm to come down below the 160 kt limit
for flap and u/c extension,then down to -4 and 2000 rpm for the circuit which should give you 120kts for the turn onto finals then once you've turned in to get down to 85 for touch down.
That isn't the case here,I had to use -1 to +1 boost to maintain 105kts on finals to touch down just past the keys,
Spits can and will float a bit,but this has a fair rate of sink(drag/lift scalar?).
Three points do give a nice "Spitfire Bounce" though.
Also,why has it incremental flaps with a horrid grinding sound? Spit flaps are air operated and are either up or down.
The oleos need stiffening up a bit too,it wobbles about on the ground like a drunk,but,but,above 12k the boost
doesn't drop off,so the two speed two stage blower is working correctly.
That's all for now folks.
Motormouse
SOH-CM-2025
Miggers,
Flap increments are tied to the animations set by whomever made / makes the model. So unless one has source code for the model, the visuals are pretty fixed.
You can tweak the .cfg file to only have one flap setting,
for "flight effect" , but visuals will still follow what modeller has set.
Sounds follow what has been set in the sound.cfg file,
if no sound is set, then default graunch sound is played.
You could always replace the complete sound folder with the one from Real Air (or a n other ) if that's more to your taste.
You could add wing tanks as a payload station,
given fwd/aft , left/right and up/down coordinates from
the model datum position. Again, datum position is something set during model build (and often bears no relation to where the actual datum point is on real aeroplane just as an fyi) so locating the datum is a problem...
However....
Theres a tutorial by Milton Shupe, on how to adjust model
"contact points" to stiffen up gear; you can use same principle outlined there to locate the wing tanks and get the coordinates for the payload station.
For .air files, Magoo (James Banks) is the one to approach
Be careful though....this tweeking can get addictive!
Ttfn
Pete
Flap increments are tied to the animations set by whomever made / makes the model. So unless one has source code for the model, the visuals are pretty fixed.
You can tweak the .cfg file to only have one flap setting,
for "flight effect" , but visuals will still follow what modeller has set.
Sounds follow what has been set in the sound.cfg file,
if no sound is set, then default graunch sound is played.
You could always replace the complete sound folder with the one from Real Air (or a n other ) if that's more to your taste.
You could add wing tanks as a payload station,
given fwd/aft , left/right and up/down coordinates from
the model datum position. Again, datum position is something set during model build (and often bears no relation to where the actual datum point is on real aeroplane just as an fyi) so locating the datum is a problem...
However....
Theres a tutorial by Milton Shupe, on how to adjust model
"contact points" to stiffen up gear; you can use same principle outlined there to locate the wing tanks and get the coordinates for the payload station.
For .air files, Magoo (James Banks) is the one to approach
Be careful though....this tweeking can get addictive!
Ttfn
Pete
Motormouse
SOH-CM-2025
FAO Shessi
I've been having a fiddle around with the aircraft.cfg file (see attached zip)
so ....changed the gear damping; changed flaps deploy speed (Spit flaps are fast)
tweeked rudder and elev trim effectiveness, given it correct 1565 HP per
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Merlin#Variants
View attachment 76082
Bit of an issue with weight and balance ; at the moment the cfg file thinks all the fuel and pilot are sitting in same location (on datum point), and compared to John Dibbs' book, the empty and max weights are wrong too...ho hum..
so... if you can give me a pointer where the model datum point is , I'll have a bash at that too
ttfn
Pete
I've been having a fiddle around with the aircraft.cfg file (see attached zip)
so ....changed the gear damping; changed flaps deploy speed (Spit flaps are fast)
tweeked rudder and elev trim effectiveness, given it correct 1565 HP per
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Merlin#Variants
- Merlin 61 (RM 8SM)
View attachment 76082
Bit of an issue with weight and balance ; at the moment the cfg file thinks all the fuel and pilot are sitting in same location (on datum point), and compared to John Dibbs' book, the empty and max weights are wrong too...ho hum..
so... if you can give me a pointer where the model datum point is , I'll have a bash at that too
ttfn
Pete
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