gecko
Charter Member
By the way, if anyone is interested in how the real displays looked, there's this excellent site: http://website.lineone.net/~norman.groom/index.htm
TAC Displays, HUD gauges, and brackets.
- Thread starter mongoose
- Start date
mongoose
SOH-CM-2023
A good site which lead me to
http://www.cdvandt.org/index.htm for German which lead to http://www.cdvandt.org/D-Luft-T-4117-2-FuG 217.pdf for NJ
and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neptun_(radar) which gave me https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Neptun_FuG_217.pdf
http://www.cdvandt.org/index.htm for German which lead to http://www.cdvandt.org/D-Luft-T-4117-2-FuG 217.pdf for NJ
and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neptun_(radar) which gave me https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Neptun_FuG_217.pdf
MajorMagee
SOH-CM-2022
Not much technical detail, but still an interesting read.
http://www.cdvandt.org/BIOS-67.pdf
I loved the line about how they couldn't test one particular item because the Americans had take all the equipment before the British got there.
http://www.cdvandt.org/BIOS-67.pdf
I loved the line about how they couldn't test one particular item because the Americans had take all the equipment before the British got there.
mongoose
SOH-CM-2023
It's highly unlikely we will be able to accurately reproduce the German Neptune radar or any Allied one.
This is from an IL2 post. Seems if anyone could make Daniel's suggestion that might be the best!
QUOTE
The FuG 202 Lichtenstein BC infact did use three scopes. Two A-scopes, one to display angular deviation of azimuth, the other one to display angular deviation of elevation, and a J-scope, to display range. On the J-scope range was presented similar to a radial gauge.
J-scope
J-, A- and A-scopes
In later radar sets (i.e. FuG 212 Lichtenstein C-1, FuG 220 Lichtenstein SN-2, FuG 218 Neptun) the J-scope was dropped, as one of the A-scopes (usually the azimuth one) was calibrated so range could be read from it as well.
Since these radars operated in the meter wavelength, there was almost always ground clutter visible in the scopes. Also, contacts displayed simply as amplitude peaks and the whole thing looked more like an oscilloscope than what we would call a radar screen today.
It had nothing to do with anything like 'dots on a map'.
END QUOTE
This is from an IL2 post. Seems if anyone could make Daniel's suggestion that might be the best!
QUOTE
The FuG 202 Lichtenstein BC infact did use three scopes. Two A-scopes, one to display angular deviation of azimuth, the other one to display angular deviation of elevation, and a J-scope, to display range. On the J-scope range was presented similar to a radial gauge.
J-scope
J-, A- and A-scopes
In later radar sets (i.e. FuG 212 Lichtenstein C-1, FuG 220 Lichtenstein SN-2, FuG 218 Neptun) the J-scope was dropped, as one of the A-scopes (usually the azimuth one) was calibrated so range could be read from it as well.
Since these radars operated in the meter wavelength, there was almost always ground clutter visible in the scopes. Also, contacts displayed simply as amplitude peaks and the whole thing looked more like an oscilloscope than what we would call a radar screen today.
It had nothing to do with anything like 'dots on a map'.
END QUOTE
gecko
Charter Member
Well, the other thing to consider is that since we are all taking the role of the pilot when we fly, most of these aircraft had a radar operator who interpreted the signals and gave direction to the pilot verbally. So since verbal cues aren't an option, and doing the work of interpreting the radar displays wouldn't have been our responsibility, we really just need a way of visually approximating the location of a target that is limited by the range and angle limitations of the individual types of radar. Another thought I have would be to write an autohotkey script that only blinked the TAC and target cone on for a second or so, every few seconds to simulate the radar operator giving an instruction, but giving you only a snapshot at regular intervals rather than a live feed.
mongoose
SOH-CM-2023
Talking of night fighter crew positions, while it is relative clear with Bf 110s and Ju88s, that the funker was behind the pilot, for Mosquitos they were side by side with the navigator slightly offset behind. Off hand I don't think CFS3 shows views from his position.
here is a pretty clear view.
The Beaufighters had the 2nd crew in the back but again I don't know off hand if CFS3 shows his position.
I like the 110 as I can be in the funkers position with the radar and auto pilot and when necessary switch to the pilot and turn off TAC until I am on the new course when I can revert to auto pilot, the funker, and TAC radar.
Once within visual I can dispense with the funker and the radar.
Not so easy with the mosquito.
Also single engine F190 wilde sau did have radar which I suppose the pilot had to operate at the same time.
Anyway Daniel's ideas are very promising if they can be made to work.
here is a pretty clear view.
The Beaufighters had the 2nd crew in the back but again I don't know off hand if CFS3 shows his position.
I like the 110 as I can be in the funkers position with the radar and auto pilot and when necessary switch to the pilot and turn off TAC until I am on the new course when I can revert to auto pilot, the funker, and TAC radar.
Once within visual I can dispense with the funker and the radar.
Not so easy with the mosquito.
Also single engine F190 wilde sau did have radar which I suppose the pilot had to operate at the same time.
Anyway Daniel's ideas are very promising if they can be made to work.
radar
Well I made a new target cone but still need to get the brightness and opacity correct. I think position will always be an issue since it is center screen. I have mentioned this once before several years ago but I made a radar station that had the dials as guns. The dials moved once an enemy was in range and you could use the dials to guide you to an intercept. All you need to do is make the radar station a pilot station and you can fly the plane as well as be guided to the target. It worked ok but the gauges were difficult to see at night, however, with the new illuminated gauges this should be solved. I tested it some but never did much with it since the textures for the gauges were limited. What I did i was add a dot in each dial to represent the target and it moved in accordance with the axis the dial was oriented to. That is elevation was just for and aft (up/down) while azimuth was only left right (this was done in the xdp). Distance well that really was never modeled well, but toggling between the funker and pilot made interceptions possible and really quite the challenge. I abandoned this but still have all the gmax/max models. I think that Daniel's idea of an intermittent target bracket and cone may be ok, as I do not hold out much for the modified target cone. Let me know what you guys/gals want.
Well I made a new target cone but still need to get the brightness and opacity correct. I think position will always be an issue since it is center screen. I have mentioned this once before several years ago but I made a radar station that had the dials as guns. The dials moved once an enemy was in range and you could use the dials to guide you to an intercept. All you need to do is make the radar station a pilot station and you can fly the plane as well as be guided to the target. It worked ok but the gauges were difficult to see at night, however, with the new illuminated gauges this should be solved. I tested it some but never did much with it since the textures for the gauges were limited. What I did i was add a dot in each dial to represent the target and it moved in accordance with the axis the dial was oriented to. That is elevation was just for and aft (up/down) while azimuth was only left right (this was done in the xdp). Distance well that really was never modeled well, but toggling between the funker and pilot made interceptions possible and really quite the challenge. I abandoned this but still have all the gmax/max models. I think that Daniel's idea of an intermittent target bracket and cone may be ok, as I do not hold out much for the modified target cone. Let me know what you guys/gals want.
James
It is difficult to explain or show in still pictures. I took a fug 212 display and used the textures from the ground crew bf 110 g series planes. Made the display housing and the three dial faces, each for range, azimuth, and elevation. Then you make a gun for each and in the xdp give it the characteristics that each dial represents. So for elevation the range was plus/minus 60 degrees (up/down) with no lateral movement. For azimuth l/r 60 degrees and no elevation. Range well this one was the draw back as there was not real way to have the guns show you are getting closer unless you made several guns each with different range limits in the guns folder (which you can do) so that say at 6 km one indicator starts to work then at 3km another and say at 1km still another, clunky but would work. The "indicator" was an oval object that was linked to the gun but displayed on the gauge. So as the gun aimed the oval moved showing the location of the target. You flew the plane to have the oval move into the center of the dial indicating that you where directly behind and at the same altitude of the intended target. One you were there, you could use the tactical display to check for range and "pauke" "pauke", down went another invader.
It worked ok, but the cfs3 gun movements are not so smooth at times and with multiple targets it jumped around which would represent the presence of a large bomber stream. I made the radar station flyable so you could watch the screen and move to an intercept (needed to use hud gauges to keep the plane stable). The biggest draw back was the lack of luminous gauges so night intercepts were very tedious and just unrealistic at times. Maybe now it could work more effectively.
I made a cylinder with a horizontal line, just need to get the colors and transparency correct. I did not like it that much, but will still keep pursing the holy grail of 3 axis radar in cfs3.......
It is difficult to explain or show in still pictures. I took a fug 212 display and used the textures from the ground crew bf 110 g series planes. Made the display housing and the three dial faces, each for range, azimuth, and elevation. Then you make a gun for each and in the xdp give it the characteristics that each dial represents. So for elevation the range was plus/minus 60 degrees (up/down) with no lateral movement. For azimuth l/r 60 degrees and no elevation. Range well this one was the draw back as there was not real way to have the guns show you are getting closer unless you made several guns each with different range limits in the guns folder (which you can do) so that say at 6 km one indicator starts to work then at 3km another and say at 1km still another, clunky but would work. The "indicator" was an oval object that was linked to the gun but displayed on the gauge. So as the gun aimed the oval moved showing the location of the target. You flew the plane to have the oval move into the center of the dial indicating that you where directly behind and at the same altitude of the intended target. One you were there, you could use the tactical display to check for range and "pauke" "pauke", down went another invader.
It worked ok, but the cfs3 gun movements are not so smooth at times and with multiple targets it jumped around which would represent the presence of a large bomber stream. I made the radar station flyable so you could watch the screen and move to an intercept (needed to use hud gauges to keep the plane stable). The biggest draw back was the lack of luminous gauges so night intercepts were very tedious and just unrealistic at times. Maybe now it could work more effectively.
I made a cylinder with a horizontal line, just need to get the colors and transparency correct. I did not like it that much, but will still keep pursing the holy grail of 3 axis radar in cfs3.......
Fug 212
James-
This will take a while since I do not think I have any of the cockpits equipped with this radar system. Also, will need to create new xdp's to have it work. So it will be a while I am afraid.
Ted
James-
This will take a while since I do not think I have any of the cockpits equipped with this radar system. Also, will need to create new xdp's to have it work. So it will be a while I am afraid.
Ted
MajorMagee
SOH-CM-2022
With the recent interest in the topic again it's time for a 
Issues
Hi - not sure what issues you are speaking of? The illumination sure that can be done.
I was so impressed with what I saw in IL2, it was amazing the radar they have... Oh well.
I was speaking with a IBM programmer the other day and shared our little world. She said just h%#k the engine/program and rewrite what you want.... So easy i guess if you don't care about legal eagle stuff. Yes this is evil I know, but the alternative noCD options (ssshhh) they had to h#$k the program to get that to work - just evil dreams of an morally corrupt person...
Now you know this idea is just complete rubbish that I would never advocate we do, just seems so frustrating .....
Oh, found all the files and stuff I used just have way too many things in the mix - maybe I should listen to the wife and retire???
Dan- ever get the visibility range on the beacons to be the 8-10 km we need? Also colors any luck other than white for the searchlights? I send you the models I have. I will make one with an emitter as well.
Hi - not sure what issues you are speaking of? The illumination sure that can be done.
I was so impressed with what I saw in IL2, it was amazing the radar they have...
Oh well. I was speaking with a IBM programmer the other day and shared our little world. She said just h%#k the engine/program and rewrite what you want.... So easy i guess if you don't care about legal eagle stuff. Yes this is evil I know, but the alternative noCD options (ssshhh) they had to h#$k the program to get that to work - just evil dreams of an morally corrupt person...
Now you know this idea is just complete rubbish that I would never advocate we do, just seems so frustrating .....Oh, found all the files and stuff I used just have way too many things in the mix - maybe I should listen to the wife and retire???
Dan- ever get the visibility range on the beacons to be the 8-10 km we need? Also colors any luck other than white for the searchlights? I send you the models I have. I will make one with an emitter as well.
MajorMagee
SOH-CM-2022
Looking at the target cone as a 3D object that can have variable levels of transparency has me thinking of ways to create something that looks like a working radar screen.
Start with a four part model:
A light green mostly transparent sphere.
A light green rod slightly shorter than the diameter of the sphere that is a little less transparent than the sphere.
A brighter green opaque dot slightly larger than the rod diameter on the end of the rod that will point away from the target.
A darker green opaque dot the same diameter as the rod on the end of the rod that will point at the target.
As the target cone moves the line and dots will point at the target within the sphere that will appear as a transparent green circle on the screen.
The line will be the longest when you are looking exactly 90 degrees off axis from the target.
The line will shorten as you line up more directly with the target.
Looking directly away from the target the image will appear as a bright green halo around the darker green dot highlighting your course error and warning that they are now on your six.
When you are looking directly at the target the image will appear as a bright green dot in the center of the scope.
Simulated images with the target ahead and up to the right, directly behind, and directly in front of the player.
Start with a four part model:
A light green mostly transparent sphere.
A light green rod slightly shorter than the diameter of the sphere that is a little less transparent than the sphere.
A brighter green opaque dot slightly larger than the rod diameter on the end of the rod that will point away from the target.
A darker green opaque dot the same diameter as the rod on the end of the rod that will point at the target.
As the target cone moves the line and dots will point at the target within the sphere that will appear as a transparent green circle on the screen.
The line will be the longest when you are looking exactly 90 degrees off axis from the target.
The line will shorten as you line up more directly with the target.
Looking directly away from the target the image will appear as a bright green halo around the darker green dot highlighting your course error and warning that they are now on your six.
When you are looking directly at the target the image will appear as a bright green dot in the center of the scope.
Simulated images with the target ahead and up to the right, directly behind, and directly in front of the player.
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