Testing Out Carried Over 2020 Aircraft

F

FAC257

SOH-CM-2025
Somewhat related to Denny's upgrade pricing thread, but I didn't want to step on or high jack that one.

For the last two hours I've been wanting setup a simple flight using some of my favorite 2020 MSMP aircraft to see if they made the carry over okay. I'm surprised and not surprised by what I've seen with 2024, that none of them made it without issues ranging from showstoppers to making them okay to fly but with irritating issues making them not my favorites anymore if the problems aren't fixed. Apparently, MS wasn't exactly honest when they said all your 2020 MSMP addons will be okay in 2024.

I don't want to get into specific aircraft, because all are from great developers I really like, and I don't want to knock their work when it may just be more 2024 issues that may or may not get fixed.


Forest
 
I think that most of the developers will be releasing 2020-2024 updates to their products. They know that many of us would not re-buy a $40-$60 aircraft just because of a few abnormalities between the two versions. Now, if the rework to 2024 standards includes new features only found in 2024, then I would not be surprised to have them charge us an extra fee for the upgrade.
 
For the past 30 years or so they've been telling us that prior add-ons would work, and they never have. I think Forest is correct in his assessment. Seems like the whole sim has been just pushed out the door, anyway.

LouP
 
MS has stated that FS2020 compatibility is a big dev focus right now, and they need to get the most egregious issues fixed ASAP so that they can release the Marketplace and start getting revenue. So I expect FS2020 compatibility, even for stuff that’s not updated by the devs, to get a lot better between now and Christmas.

I can only guess MS was blindsided by the number of issues found once they released the alpha to devs. It’s an amazing sim, but given how key the Marketplace is to the sim’s economy, it’s shocking how poorly the SDK is documented (even the FS2020 SDK still has huge documentation omissions) and how little internal focus appears to be spent on third-party compatibility. There are two aspects to this sim — the entertainment product, and the “airplane/world operating system.” The latter aspect alas gets some effort, but not nearly the level it should.
 
In my opinion, Microsoft sees this as a "game". Games are mostly for kids. Kids buy pretty things that their friends buy. That is X-Box. X-Box is the money maker. We the serious simmers who see the "game" as a simulator first are a small minority. I see most of the new features, like the careers and ability to move your Avatar like in a video game to be features that will attract the gaming crowd.

So, no Microsoft considers the 3rd party developers who like Carenado produce pretty toys that will sell well more important than a GAS type developer who is trying to develop the best add-on possible. One exception to that group is PDMG. They develop great products, but they sell very well to the largest serious simmers, the airline crowd.

Why MS/Asobo can't come up with a SDK for 3 rd party developers is beyond me. They had to have one to make their own models. Just share it.
 
John, all the respect, but as someone who’s worked in the gaming industry for most of his adult career (including 16 years at MS, most of them in the Xbox group), games haven’t been for kids since the 70’s.

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And I understand your frustration, but it’s not being fair.

1) There’s no reason to resent casual “game” sim players. We would never have a sim with a budget like the one MSFS has without casual simmers participating, And if we did’t bring new players into the genre, sims would die again, like they did in the early 2000s. Even now, the genre’s barely alive compared to the 90’s.

2) MS puts an *inordinate* amount of effort into supporting serious simmers. They’d never have bought Working Title. They’d never have added the insane levels of systems simulation that are in the sim (how many even hardcore flight sim fliers give a **** about detailed electrical systems? Tiny percentage, but it’s there).

I absolutely agree with a lot of what you’re saying, and the SDK support is a crying shame. But we have Jorg pushing really cool super-niche famous fliers, insane detail and physics simulation, and lots of other things that are in this mega-million-dollar sim that are purely catering to aviation fanatics and hardcore simmers, and not aimed at gamers. If they were focused on gamers, the careers wouldn’t be based on interviews with real pilots, we’d be looking at Ace Combat level mainstream crap.

From watching the developer forums, it looks like the issue here is that MS dropped a developer beta WAY too late, and they were blindsided by how many issues devs found. They had a hard ship date (financial quarters, marketing commitments, etc.) and weren’t able to fix it all in time.

It’s not an emphasis on gamers. It’s poor planning and prioritization, just like the terrible server planning on launch day. I was as excited about 2024 as any of us, and I’m really disappointed with how it shipped. But in the end, this poorly handled launch will be a footnote in the sim’s history. They’ll get 2020 compatibility more in order, and other issues fixed up, the most egregious problems sooner than later.

** Disclaimer: No inside knowledge here other than industry experience, haven’t been associated with with MS for a few years.
 
DennyA said:
John, all the respect, but as someone who’s worked in the gaming industry for most of his adult career (including 16 years at MS, most of them in the Xbox group), games haven’t been for kids since the 70’s.

View attachment 158447

And I understand your frustration, but it’s not being fair.

1) There’s no reason to resent casual “game” sim players. We would never have a sim with a budget like the one MSFS has without casual simmers participating, And if we did’t bring new players into the genre, sims would die again, like they did in the early 2000s. Even now, the genre’s barely alive compared to the 90’s.

2) MS puts an *inordinate* amount of effort into supporting serious simmers. They’d never have bought Working Title. They’d never have added the insane levels of systems simulation that are in the sim (how many even hardcore flight sim fliers give a **** about detailed electrical systems? Tiny percentage, but it’s there).

I absolutely agree with a lot of what you’re saying, and the SDK support is a crying shame. But we have Jorg pushing really cool super-niche famous fliers, insane detail and physics simulation, and lots of other things that are in this mega-million-dollar sim that are purely catering to aviation fanatics and hardcore simmers, and not aimed at gamers. If they were focused on gamers, the careers wouldn’t be based on interviews with real pilots, we’d be looking at Ace Combat level mainstream crap.

From watching the developer forums, it looks like the issue here is that MS dropped a developer beta WAY too late, and they were blindsided by how many issues devs found. They had a hard ship date (financial quarters, marketing commitments, etc.) and weren’t able to fix it all in time.

It’s not an emphasis on gamers. It’s poor planning and prioritization, just like the terrible server planning on launch day. I was as excited about 2024 as any of us, and I’m really disappointed with how it shipped. But in the end, this poorly handled launch will be a footnote in the sim’s history. They’ll get 2020 compatibility more in order, and other issues fixed up, the most egregious problems sooner than later.

** Disclaimer: No inside knowledge here other than industry experience, haven’t been associated with with MS for a few years.
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Well, I guess I stand corrected. I never realized that 18% of old-timers were also gamers. I guess I fall in that group. :)

I am not frustrated with the way the sim is going. I was only stating what I considered to be the reasoning behind the direction MS Flight Sims are going. I understand that this is business for them. The only thing I really dislike about MS is their propensity to quickly kill products that aren't doing well, leaving the purchasers holding the bag. However, in fairness, I guess other companies do the same.

I only use Free Flight. The additional functions I ignore, unless I find something that is of interest. Maybe I will let my avatar, which I think is cool the way you can design them, wander through one of those expensive airports with a walk though terminal. That is if someone playing through a TSA career doesn't stop me. ;)
 
jmig said:
I think that most of the developers will be releasing 2020-2024 updates to their products. They know that many of us would not re-buy a $40-$60 aircraft just because of a few abnormalities between the two versions. Now, if the rework to 2024 standards includes new features only found in 2024, then I would not be surprised to have them charge us an extra fee for the upgrade.
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I started with FS2002 Pro. When I moved to FS9, I found that every single one of my downloaded aircraft (mostly Mike Stone's stuff) worked perfectly in FS9. I even moved the Corsair (originally from a CFS variant?) into FS9 and was shocked to discover that the once-static VC was now clickable. If they could do that 20 years ago, when not now? (Yeah, I get the complexity level has gone through the roof comparatively, but come on people...)

I hate to sound negative, but with all of the compatibility issues and now the ATC issues I'm reading, I'll be sticking with 2020 for the foreseeable future.
 
jmig said:
Well, I guess I stand corrected. I never realized that 18% of old-timers were also gamers. I guess I fall in that group. :)

I am not frustrated with the way the sim is going. I was only stating what I considered to be the reasoning behind the direction MS Flight Sims are going. I understand that this is business for them. The only thing I really dislike about MS is their propensity to quickly kill products that aren't doing well, leaving the purchasers holding the bag. However, in fairness, I guess other companies do the same.

I only use Free Flight. The additional functions I ignore, unless I find something that is of interest. Maybe I will let my avatar, which I think is cool the way you can design them, wander through one of those expensive airports with a walk though terminal. That is if someone playing through a TSA career doesn't stop me. ;)
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I’m just sensitive about the “games are for kids” things because I’ve spent about 80% of my adult career (starting in 1990) in the PC/console/VR gaming and entertainment market. Back when computer magazines were a thing, in 10 years I went from “newbie junior editor” to editorial director for an entire magazine group. And my grandfather told me he was proud of me, and (using kinder words, but this was the meaning) if this success in gaming would lead to a good job in a real grown-up business. :) (In his defense, gaming was “only” a $66 billlion market in 2023!)

The majority of Gen X kids like me who had VIC 20s, Commodore 64s (with Flight Simulator II!), Ataris, and Apple ][s in high school and got into gaming in our teens still play stuff like MSFS 2024, Mass Effect, Star Realms, High on Life, etc. now in our late 50s. The highest percentage of gamers is between 35 and 44 now — the “Nintendo kids” who’ve been gaming their entire life.

Back on topic a bit, I’m excited about the missions and career mode because I was suprised to discover how much fun I had using NeoFly and other career add-ons with FS2020. Realistic flying challenges that gave me places to explore, challenging places to land, etc. And as an aviation fanatic, learning more about various aircraft operations and procedures will be fun. Though I’m sticking mostly with free flight until a few months of bug fixes drop, I think.

With regard to FS2020 planes, MS dropped the ball with the launch by dropping the dev alpha far too late in the release process. I think they were utterly surprised by how many issues were discovered. This was avoidable and a shame, but at this point, it is what it is. The good news is that launching Marketplace successfully relies on the majority of FS2020 content working *without* needing updates from the developers, so Asobo/MS are working hard on this, and I expect that the situation with 2020 content will look much better very soon.
 
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DennyA said:
The highest percentage of gamers is between 35 and 44 now — the “Nintendo kids” who’ve been gaming their entire life.
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True in our family, at least. PS5 is their weapon of choice, they think I'm a freak with an XBox Series X. My 5 year-old grandson (Number 6 grandchild) can now play MSFS2020 on it as much as he likes now that I've got MSFS2024 on PC!
 
Shoot, looks like I'm in the 1% group. Looking at the chart, I have been in every group at one time or another.
 
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