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Texan #5 on Best Seller List

C

Cerberus

Guest
If you get a chance go to http://www.fspilotshop.com/ and look on the right hand side to see what is this months best selling FS aircraft. At number 5 our FSX Texans are the highest rank aircraft on the list. I assume this list is accurate if not then maybe my thoughts are presumptuous. In addition, another of our aircraft also made the list for a period of time this month, the reason being was we had a massive 50% off sale in which you could get the Texans for only $10 over the Fourth of July Weekend, but I didn’t come here to brag.

Well when I first saw the Texans on the bestseller list I was really shocked. The reason being was that only 53 products had sold when I noticed it at number 5. That’s about $530 with fspilotshop taking 30% leaving our entire team with $371 to spread amongst ourselves for being gracious enough to put a plane on sale for only $10. I think a lot of people wonder why most FS products cost as much as the actual game did, and I’m proud to have some of the lowest priced products on the market, the first Fs2004 product I ever I released cost under $15. I actually had to increase price over the next several products I released and sales improved despite the first product being of higher quality than some of the later ones. I guess in the case of our first Fs2004 product a below standard price put a stigmatism on the quality and scared people away.

Assuming the list is accurate and our FSX Texans can be the number 1 ranked selling aircraft this month at only $371 in company profit, then it really makes you wonder what the hundreds of other designers selling products with Fspilotshop are getting? Frankly I highly hope this list isn’t accurate and others are getting more than 53 sales in a 15 day period, otherwise I think we are going to see a ton of companies closing their doors and not releasing anything new, and the financial frustration in the community and among developers is going get in the way of us having fun pushing even more revenue from our hobby. I also hope the list is not accurate because honestly I dream of my company growing to one day be able to develop our own games and simulators, but if 53 sales is really the monthly peak then their isn’t much hope of this happening any time soon.

Another point I’d like to bring up is piracy. I know most will argue that the people that will pirate would have never bought the products to begin with. Well this is not true. When I was in school over the years taking 18-21 hours of classes and could not release new products or promote the products the way I wanted to we had a number of slow months. During this time I visited a few of the forums that distributed our aircraft illegally and noticed that the owners took donations so that they could buy our software legally and then give it away for free illegally. Well to my surprise the amount they gathered in monthly donations was far greater than the amounts the company had been ending up with from actual sales. In addition, one slow month I decided to compare the number of illegal downloads of our products to what I actually made. I added up the download counter for just 1, repeat just 1, pirate website and the monthly illegal downloads exceeded $30,000. You wonder how much did I make this month? Only $600. I’m blessed to have the people that paid me that $600 legally, I know a lot of you came from SOH, and it sure helped get me through school, but with a $279 car note, $315 in rent, college books, food, utilities can you imagine how I felt to only get $600 and have over $30,000 stolen from me? Can you imagine what the amount had been if I had been able to calculate every site that illegally hosted our planes?

Now I could have released all of this information along time ago, and hoped all of the whining would help increase our sales, but that is not my intention. I thought the community could use this information to help better understand how little we get in return for how much we put into this. That topped of with having to deal with some publishers that never pay us, and the frustration of piracy. Yesterday marks 4 weeks and 3 promises broken on when we would get paid by a foreign company that was selling one of our products on store shelves.

The recent sales information just really reinforced that other companies were having just as hard of time as me, and it appears for this month even a worse time. Now what good can we get from all of this seemingly bad news? Well its easy to see why customers get frustrated in these hard financial times, but few if any developers have taken the risk by releasing the type of information I have, so we never hear their side of the story. Now is the time more than ever we are all going to have to band together if we want this community and hobby to survive. To do this we are going to have to start having more empathy for each other and strive to better understand the frustrations that are going around. If we don’t then we are going to have even more developers close doors and even more financially stressed people turn to piracy.
 
Now try this bit of maths, though, Cerberus...

I have a $100 budget this month. I illegally download everything you have ever created, everything PMDG have ever created, everything Captain Sim has ever created and everything Ariane have ever created (you can tell me why I bothered with the last one later, I chose all of that list but SU because they are expensive...) - I've gained probably over a thousand dollars of software, so I "donate" my $100 to some creep to buy more software to upload.

How much money have you lost? $100? But couldn't that money have gone to any of the other developers?

I agree entirely that developers - and customers - need to work together to reduce the losses from illegally downloaded software, but the maths you have just quoted doesn't add up at all. The majority of people using illegal software couldn't afford a tiny fraction of what they download. That's a fact, not conjecture, proven in court case after court case.

The only way to resolve it is to make breach of copyright a criminal offence, but then you make a criminal out of the majority of people in the world and are you really going to make any more money than you are at the moment?

Edited to add: The big and most difficult thing to get through to most illegal downloaders is that they are hurting themselves. No income to companies = no companies = no new products. I think we agree entirely on that as well. But how do you get that through to someone who doesn't actually earn the money in the first place, such as a school kid? They just simply don't understand the effect that their actions have.
 
Now try this bit of maths, though, Cerberus...

I have a $100 budget this month. I illegally download everything you have ever created, everything PMDG have ever created, everything Captain Sim has ever created and everything Ariane have ever created (you can tell me why I bothered with the last one later, I chose all of that list but SU because they are expensive...) - I've gained probably over a thousand dollars of software, so I "donate" my $100 to some creep to buy more software to upload.

How much money have you lost? $100? But couldn't that money have gone to any of the other developers?

I agree entirely that developers need to work together to reduce the losses from illegally downloaded software, but the maths you have just quoted doesn't add up at all. The majority of people using illegal software couldn't afford a tiny fraction of what they download. That's a fact, not conjecture, proven in court case after court case.

The only way to resolve it is to make breach of copyright a criminal offence, but then you make a criminal out of the majority of people in the world and are you really going to make any more money than you are at the moment?

Maybe not, but you will sure feel better about working on new projects, I know I would.

Great post Ian, I agree, make it a VERY harsh offense with VERY strict penalties for being a theft, no matter what the justification. I still stick with my idea of a worldwide NATO type force that would use deadly force to take out those that offer illegal downloads..

I have never bought anything from fspilotshop and don't really consider them a major player when it comes to addons, so that might account for the lower sales numbers from there.
 
What you have done there, Michael, is hit the nail on the head, whether your post was intended to be sarcastic or not. Going after the downloaders does nothing at all but angers your potential customers - ask the RIAA and MPAA all about it.

On the other hand, if you go after the distribution sites and go after them effectively, then the ability to upload, let alone the desire to, vanishes. The ability to download vanishes at the same time.

How the heck have some of these sites been allowed to get away with what they have for as long as they have? Because the USA (or any other country) doesn't want China, Russia or France (or any other country) controlling what American (or any other nationality) internet users can or cannot do. Until there is true international control over the internet, or even a majority of countries, then there'll always be loopholes to use to escape conviction.

So...
Step 1) Total agreement between nations over who controls the internet and how.
Step 2) Shut down the distribution sites and search engines (e.g. Google, Yahoo, MSN Search...)
Step 3) Sit back and... Oh. Errr...
 
On the other hand, if you go after the distribution sites and go after them effectively, then the ability to upload, let alone the desire to, vanishes. The ability to download vanishes at the same time.

I call that "keeping the honest people honest." It's why I lock my door even though I trust my neighbors...
 
Now try this bit of maths, though, Cerberus...

I have a $100 budget this month. I illegally download everything you have ever created, everything PMDG have ever created, everything Captain Sim has ever created and everything Ariane have ever created (you can tell me why I bothered with the last one later, I chose all of that list but SU because they are expensive...) - I've gained probably over a thousand dollars of software, so I "donate" my $100 to some creep to buy more software to upload.

How much money have you lost? $100? But couldn't that money have gone to any of the other developers?

I agree entirely that developers - and customers - need to work together to reduce the losses from illegally downloaded software, but the maths you have just quoted doesn't add up at all. The majority of people using illegal software couldn't afford a tiny fraction of what they download. That's a fact, not conjecture, proven in court case after court case.

The only way to resolve it is to make breach of copyright a criminal offence, but then you make a criminal out of the majority of people in the world and are you really going to make any more money than you are at the moment?

Edited to add: The big and most difficult thing to get through to most illegal downloaders is that they are hurting themselves. No income to companies = no companies = no new products. I think we agree entirely on that as well. But how do you get that through to someone who doesn't actually earn the money in the first place, such as a school kid? They just simply don't understand the effect that their actions have.


The money they received spread among all the developers wouldn’t be equal. Just making the point that some people have the money to buy 2-5 projects maybe more and they don’t. Person A has $100 and instead of buying $100 worth of products he decides to donate it. Well Person B has a $100 they want to spend on planes, but since Person A made it so they could get the planes they wanted they decide why spend their $100.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
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I know you are not defending them, but we must remember that every time their logic or actions are justified in any manner more creditability is given to their cause even if it was not the intent. Some people may be sitting on the fence right now thinking man it would be sure nice if I would just go download those planes illegally, but wait I am better than that. Well they read all of the posts I have read supporting piracy and how it doesn’t hurt the community they decide one more person won’t hurt. I spend hours out of my day sometimes submitting abuse claims to various websites. Hours I could have been working on a new plane or actually seeing money for my time spent. So I know personally that it hurts not only my motivation but also the time I must invest. Myself and other developers have spent a lot of time thinking about this and if anyone could be considered an expert on these matters it would most likely be us.

ETA: Another thing to consider is that, the 1000+ people that downloaded my products from that website in just a single month all were able to afford computers that could run FS9 and FSX. I had to spend $3000 and build the computer myself to get one that would work well with FSX. What does one do with a computer with that much power? They play high end video games many of which would have to be bought legally. Unless they spent $3,000 just on an FSX computer, which in my opinion would be a luxury. So I'm pretty sure at the very least a few of those people had enough disposable income to buy a few products now and then if not the majority.
 
I really didn't want this thread to become all about piracy. There are even bigger things than this going on.
 
I have never bought anything from fspilotshop and don't really consider them a major player when it comes to addons, so that might account for the lower sales numbers from there.

A few years ago this might have been the case and I almost decided to stop selling with them because sales were much worse than on sim-market and the other websites I sale on. With the exception to my own website within the past year fspilotshop has taken a lead over the other websites. I recommended them to another designer that was experiencing very poor sales with some of the major websites and for them fspilotshop ended up making more sales as well.

I wouldn't mind learning what everyone’s favorite vender is though, maybe I missed the chance to sale on a good website?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
 
Does Skyunlimited sell thru the flightsimstore?? Ive noticed there Skyunlimited in the compony box but no products? This is the primary place i buy my addons from otherwise i go direct to the developers point of sale site or flight1 if im feeling frisky, but they and FSS have great service and help.
 
I really didn't want this thread to become all about piracy. There are even bigger things than this going on.

This is about the bigger things, though.

Personally, I wouldn't consider the developers being hurt by illegal software to be the experts, because they only ever look at one side of the argument. Likewise from the other perspective, I've heard a lot of arguments supporting illegal downloading and only one I've ever heard has been vaguely convincing - which most definitely does not apply in the case of Flight Sim add-ons. There is, quite simply, no excuse for the trade in illegal software in this hobby.

There are currently five major contributing factors to the problems being experienced by payware developers: A massively fractured market (FS9, FSX RTM, FSX SP1, FSX SP2, FSX Accel), a global recession, illegal downloading, a declining userbase because FS is not considered "cool" and a huge amount of infighting / hostility between groups and users.

Personally, I'd say that the last one of those is the easiest to grasp and deal with, but is the willpower there to do so?

Regarding download shops, I think simMarket is still the biggest in terms of visitors, although it is less popular in the US than it is in Europe. In terms of customer satisfaction, from what I've seen, heard and read, I think Flight1's wrapper system is by far the most popular world wide. What do others think?

Bed time here... G'night!
 
I pretty much use Flight1, if I can't get something there recently I've used Aerosoft for a few purchases, also RealAir has a direct buy thing, and Carenado has a direct purchase too (I know the last two also have most their products on F1 website)
 
IanP my thread was more oriented toward the infighting and the strength it is going to take us to hold this community together for the long term. I also hope the information will educate those that might can afford to buy the planes but do not. I’ve gotten the impression that many think designers make lots of money from this, but when you factor in how much their computers cost and how much the software costs, and the time it takes them to do this most people probably don’t even make minimum wage, and because of this the majority of developers eventually quit or move on. The companies stay behind but continually have to draw upon new individuals with a passion for just creating airplanes. That passion will eventually fade as the investment in the planes becomes too great and in some cases because of community backlash and they will move on like the dozens of others I have seen in the past do.

This is really a time we all need to start better understanding one another, I think anybody that is still around in this hobby must have a strong passion for it, we just need to direct that passion in the right ways. I feel I am taking some part in keeping things alive with my monthly free-product give-aways designed to keep people coming to SOH and with the freeware releases we have planned for the near future.

ETA: As far as not understanding the point of view of the pirates, well I spent 4 years at the university getting a degree in Psychology and they really drill empathy and seeing from other peoples perspectives, which is what my post is about. In fact we took classes designed solely for this, as well as advanced statistics classes so that I would have the ability to correlate the relationship with piracy and sales as well as the next guy if I desired to, and since developers are the only people that can see their sales data they are in a position to not only have the knowledge of the pirates but also their sales data. I posted some of my sales data that reflects all other developers on fspilotshop so that the pirates could become as knowledgeable about this as we are.

I know what it feels like to be too broke to afford video games and television service. I do sacrifice these types of things so that I can afford to own and feed the rifles I enjoy to shoot, but this doesn’t justify my right to steal the video games I sacrificed so that I could afford ammo just because the games are more easily accessible for theft.
 
Hard times are only going to get worse. We've only seen the start of the depression. I for one will NEVER resort to piracy! I am by no means a rich man, dirt poor is more like it!:isadizzy: But I have my honor and dignity which I'll never compromise! I'd rather go without than steal from anyone.

The laissez faire attitude of today's world bothers me deeply!! It seems that nothing is sacred anymore, selfishness is the attitude of the masses. I have my opinions why but I'll keep them to myself.

I'm proud to do business with SU! Jesse has always been helpfull, kind and very professional. In return I'm a loyal customer, and I have everything SU has produced. And I'm very happy with every purchase I've ever made!

I care very much what happens to our community! We're a unique community from all over the world. I've been a member here for a while now. We have our good days and bad ones; that's life. I can tell lately that there is a lot of worried, stress out people! I always try to treat everyone the way I'd like to be treated......the "golden rule". No one's perfect but it sure would be nice to see somemore people trying to apply that simple rule around here. I feel that many of the guys here are friends, good friends considering the unusual nature of our relationships.

I feel that all of the developers that frequent our forum are amazing people! I'm humbled by their knowledge and creativity! I love what they do; I've always wanted to contribute to developing FS addon's but my skills are very limited!:icon_lol: So I try and write positive posts about the products I buy and enjoy. No one aircraft is perfect considering the nature of art, perfection is an impossible goal! But there is always something positive to find about each product. I always try to be tactful and honest and hope that I contribute something positive.

Sorry for the soap box rant...of sorts, but I've been feeling pretty upset by somethings around here lately. I guess that it's my SOH philosophy. Now is the time for us to become even a closer community!
 
??? guess I don't understand your post ??? :engel016::mixedsmi:

I agree with you completely, well said, ergo "spot on".

My dad used to drop bombs for the USAF, and that's what they would say when they hit the target...they "shacked it".
 
I agree with you completely, well said, ergo "spot on".

My dad used to drop bombs for the USAF, and that's what they would say when they hit the target...they "shacked it".

Cool! Never heard the "shacked it" term before. For Marine pilots it was "dropped it right in the pickle barrel".
 
If you get a chance go to http://www.fspilotshop.com/ and look on the right hand side to see what is this months best selling FS aircraft.
...
If we don’t then we are going to have even more developers close doors and even more financially stressed people turn to piracy.
Welcome to the club: about 200 Skysim Mirage III/5 sales and over
12,000 downloads from pirate sites. Tough times and getting even harder.
 
Welcome to the club: about 200 Skysim Mirage III/5 sales and over
12,000 downloads from pirate sites. Tough times and getting even harder.

I would bet every penny I have that the majority of the 200 honest purchasers are adults, and the majority of the 12,000 pirate downloaders are children/teenagers. Not that it should make you feel any better.

I know that there is a big difference of opinion among people in regard to whether or not piracy takes money out of your pocket...which I'm sure it does somewhat. But if the main thrust of pirate downloaders really are kids, they probably aren't in the position to fork out the dough anyway.

What is disturbing to me is hearing that some publishers aren't paying the model builder after sales are made.
 
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