Unfortunately, a solution like this doesn't help scenery designers. Without any sort of executable code in our projects, it's difficult to project scenery work. Not impossible, but difficult.
-
There seems to be an uptick in Political comments in recent months. Those of us who are long time members of the site know that Political and Religious content has been banned for years. Nothing has changed. Please leave all political and religious comments out of the forums.
If you recently joined the forums you were not presented with this restriction in the terms of service. This was due to a conversion error when we went from vBulletin to Xenforo. We have updated our terms of service to reflect these corrections.
Please note any post refering to a politician will be considered political even if it is intended to be humor. Our experience is these topics have a way of dividing the forums and causing deep resentment among members. It is a poison to the community. We appreciate compliance with the rules.
The Staff of SOH
Unfortunately, a solution like this doesn't help scenery designers. Without any sort of executable code in our projects, it's difficult to project scenery work. Not impossible, but difficult.
Tough, I'm afraid. It doesn't matter what you think, what you are doing is called false accusation and is, in itself, a civil offence in most countries.
A hell of a lot of people seem to need educating on the difference between theft and breach of Copyright, so listen, listen good and let this sink in.
THEFT REQUIRES PHYSICAL PROPERTY TO BE PERMANENTLY REMOVED. Money you didn't have, or a copy of a piece of software CANNOT BE STOLEN.
The offence is BREACH OF COPYRIGHT. Yes, the penalties for it need sorting out, but it is a different offence and a different offence for a damned good reason.
YOU CANNOT CONTINUE TO SELL A PIECE OF SOFTWARE THAT HAS BEEN STOLEN. THE FACT THAT YOU CAN STILL SELL SOFTWARE THAT HAS BEEN ILLEGALLY UPLOADED BY DEFINITION PREVENTS ANY PROSECUTION FOR THEFT.
Has anyone actually ever cottoned on to the fact that if you actually try prosecuting people for the offence they committed, you might get a guilty verdict rather than the case thrown out? It appears that the big boys did a long time ago, hence they have NEVER BROUGHT A PROSECUTION FOR THEFT BECAUSE IT WOULD BE THROWN OUT OF COURT. They have, however, successfully brought a large number of prosecutions for Breach of Copyright, with various penalties being imposed as a result.
You will not, and never can, solve this problem by trying to make it into something it isn't. Deal with the real problem, rather than the one you wish it was, and you'll get a lot further.
How much clearer does it have to be before that sinks in?
Don't bother responding directly to me, by the way. I'm gone. I'm sick of it.
Being semi-disabled (though not enough to qualify for SS Disability!), I fully empathize with you. I've lost my final battle with the mortgage company, and will soon be homeless myself. Sales have been so poor lately that my income will no longer support even my modest lifestyle.
jmig
SOH-CM-2025
Ian, isn't your post above rather splitting hairs and ignoring the fact that downloading software which you haven't paid for causing loss of revenue to the developer and artist? the name of the evil deed is lest important than the way it affects our hobby..... Negativity.
Besides, diverging from the real issue your post is the kind that leads to the closing of a thread. I rather not see this thread closed until it has run is natural course.
Thanks,
Besides, diverging from the real issue your post is the kind that leads to the closing of a thread. I rather not see this thread closed until it has run is natural course.
Thanks,
SpaceWeevil
SOH-CM-2024
Well, this thicko certainly understands the distinction between theft and breach of copyright now, so job done. It makes bugger all difference to the victim, of course - they're still down a sale. Can someone please now do a rant on the difference between buying something and simply buying a licence to use it? I think we should be told.
No. The difference is not splitting hairs. The difference is very, very, large indeed. It's the difference between being sent out of court with a total failure on the part of the developer and getting a successful conviction of someone breaking the law.
What angers me - and it angers me a lot - is the fact that people in this hobby, like big music and big movies, don't actually want convictions, they don't actually want the problem solved, they want people to feel sorry for them. If that wasn't the case, they would get off their backsides and do something, rather than complaining about it. But complaining is easy, doing is hard.
I said I was going. I came back to clarify why your statement was wrong. Do I care what happens to this thread? The hobby? No. Right now I am so absolutely sick of people crying about what is wrong with everything and then doing nothing about it that I'm quite happy for the site admins to ban me, delete my account and pretend I never existed. If I get it through one thick skull that you are turning a perfectly winnable fight into an unwinnable one through your own arrogance and self-pity, then I've succeeded. If I don't? Well. Carry on failing. It's not my problem.
jmig
SOH-CM-2025
Well, I for one would not like to see you banned. I enjoy reading most of your posts and all of your reviews.
I do feel you are doing a disservice to MSFS modelers, artists, and developers by lumping them in with the RICA, etc.
Big business are perceived, rightly or wrongly, as rich and arrogant. In the minds of many people ripping off a copy of the latest album, movie or MS OS is sort of a Robin Hood adventure, stealing from the rich to feed the poor. Not so with someone like the OP and his small company.
The developers I have seen post here seem to be in no position to drag anyone into court just to make a show. The costs of court would far surpass any profits they might have been able to make. I think their cries are legit and a possible harbinger of things to come.
I for one would not like to see them go away, anymore than I would like to see you banned. You both add to my hobby.
ryanbatc
Charter Member
lol I thought his post about pirating all the good stuff was sarcasm ROFLz
:isadizzy:
To the guy with scenery couldn't you just make the scenery disappear without a valid license? Also AFAIK the licensing system is used by Flight1 - never had any major issues with it, and have returned a few products with them. It's actually one of the easiest systems to use for reinstalling products. Though I did have some questions asked by various companies who sell through F1 during college - I constantly was changing IP's (dorm room annoyances) and frequently bought stuff online and frequently reinstalled products.
:isadizzy:
To the guy with scenery couldn't you just make the scenery disappear without a valid license? Also AFAIK the licensing system is used by Flight1 - never had any major issues with it, and have returned a few products with them. It's actually one of the easiest systems to use for reinstalling products. Though I did have some questions asked by various companies who sell through F1 during college - I constantly was changing IP's (dorm room annoyances) and frequently bought stuff online and frequently reinstalled products.
robrealair
Members +
You can't copyright an idea. You can only copyright work done. Technically, it is very difficult to prosecute anyone for anything in this field unless you can persuade public prosecutors that it is in the public interest to do so. Private prosecutions are only possible if you have an enormous budget, and even the test cases recently undertaken by film and music corporations have cost them an enormous sum, and the result is that one or two isolated people end up with ludicrous fines which they cannot possibly pay.
Ian (in another thread) is theoretically right but his post is a bit of an angry rant and rather unhelpful.
Ian is right though: the law would need a radical change to be effective.
In practice it is pointless to hope for this. It would take so much energy and time that you'd have to give up any creative life and spend the whole of it campaigning, and even then it is highly doubtful you'd get a result, which is why ranting about this is entirely counter productive.
The only solutions involve a combination of social outcasting and increased protection. Chuck's post is interesting. I didn't know that some aircraft addons disable gauges in a pirated copy. Of course it is difficult to ask anyone to confirm this as it would be an admittance of piracy
But as Bill points out, this is not viable for all software.
The tiny minnows in the flightsim world have no power whatsoever to change the law. Even the largest corporations with huge clout have failed to change anything fundamentally. It requires enormously powerful people to do it, and the will simply isn't there. This is not complacency, it is practical reality.
What does need to happen though, is for developers to get together to thrash this out. I know there was a recent meeting of developers to discuss the ditching of FSX by Microsoft. I don't know if there was any useful discussion on piracy but my impression is that there wasn't. Perhaps the priorities were wrong in this case.
I think there is a lot of denial going on. It is an uncomfortable thing to discuss because the powerlessness to find a solution makes it a painful subject. It is misplaced to describe piracy discussions as a self-indulgent winge.
There is no point in beating about the bush. If you are determined you can download all of our aircraft for virtually nothing merely by running through a few hoops after clicking on the multitude of first or second page google searches. The same applies to almost all developers. There is no point in denying it.
I do know of one developer who has a multilevel security system. I have no doubt whatsoever that this has crippled its sales as much as piracy has.
I personally do not possess the energy to spend half a lifetime tackling this. The only recourse, apart from wierd and wonderful security which itself takes a great deal of time and energy, is to appeal to the better nature of users tempted by freeloading opportunities. Again, a rather pathetic solution, but that's really all there is.
Rob Young
Ian (in another thread) is theoretically right but his post is a bit of an angry rant and rather unhelpful.
Ian is right though: the law would need a radical change to be effective.
In practice it is pointless to hope for this. It would take so much energy and time that you'd have to give up any creative life and spend the whole of it campaigning, and even then it is highly doubtful you'd get a result, which is why ranting about this is entirely counter productive.
The only solutions involve a combination of social outcasting and increased protection. Chuck's post is interesting. I didn't know that some aircraft addons disable gauges in a pirated copy. Of course it is difficult to ask anyone to confirm this as it would be an admittance of piracy
But as Bill points out, this is not viable for all software.
The tiny minnows in the flightsim world have no power whatsoever to change the law. Even the largest corporations with huge clout have failed to change anything fundamentally. It requires enormously powerful people to do it, and the will simply isn't there. This is not complacency, it is practical reality.
What does need to happen though, is for developers to get together to thrash this out. I know there was a recent meeting of developers to discuss the ditching of FSX by Microsoft. I don't know if there was any useful discussion on piracy but my impression is that there wasn't. Perhaps the priorities were wrong in this case.
I think there is a lot of denial going on. It is an uncomfortable thing to discuss because the powerlessness to find a solution makes it a painful subject. It is misplaced to describe piracy discussions as a self-indulgent winge.
There is no point in beating about the bush. If you are determined you can download all of our aircraft for virtually nothing merely by running through a few hoops after clicking on the multitude of first or second page google searches. The same applies to almost all developers. There is no point in denying it.
I do know of one developer who has a multilevel security system. I have no doubt whatsoever that this has crippled its sales as much as piracy has.
I personally do not possess the energy to spend half a lifetime tackling this. The only recourse, apart from wierd and wonderful security which itself takes a great deal of time and energy, is to appeal to the better nature of users tempted by freeloading opportunities. Again, a rather pathetic solution, but that's really all there is.
Rob Young
You can't copyright an idea. You can only copyright work done. Technically, it is very difficult to prosecute anyone for anything in this field unless you can persuade public prosecutors that it is in the public interest to do so. Private prosecutions are only possible if you have an enormous budget, and even the test cases recently undertaken by film and music corporations have cost them an enormous sum, and the result is that one or two isolated people end up with ludicrous fines which they cannot possibly pay.
Ian (in another thread) is theoretically right but his post is a bit of an angry rant and rather unhelpful.
Ian is right though: the law would need a radical change to be effective.
In practice it is pointless to hope for this. It would take so much energy and time that you'd have to give up any creative life and spend the whole of it campaigning, and even then it is highly doubtful you'd get a result, which is why ranting about this is entirely counter productive.
The only solutions involve a combination of social outcasting and increased protection. Chuck's post is interesting. I didn't know that some aircraft addons disable gauges in a pirated copy. Of course it is difficult to ask anyone to confirm this as it would be an admittance of piracy
But as Bill points out, this is not viable for all software.
The tiny minnows in the flightsim world have no power whatsoever to change the law. Even the largest corporations with huge clout have failed to change anything fundamentally. It requires enormously powerful people to do it, and the will simply isn't there. This is not complacency, it is practical reality.
What does need to happen though, is for developers to get together to thrash this out. I know there was a recent meeting of developers to discuss the ditching of FSX by Microsoft. I don't know if there was any useful discussion on piracy but my impression is that there wasn't. Perhaps the priorities were wrong in this case.
I think there is a lot of denial going on. It is an uncomfortable thing to discuss because the powerlessness to find a solution makes it a painful subject. It is misplaced to describe piracy discussions as a self-indulgent winge.
There is no point in beating about the bush. If you are determined you can download all of our aircraft for virtually nothing merely by running through a few hoops after clicking on the multitude of first or second page google searches. The same applies to almost all developers. There is no point in denying it.
I do know of one developer who has a multilevel security system. I have no doubt whatsoever that this has crippled its sales as much as piracy has.
I personally do not possess the energy to spend half a lifetime tackling this. The only recourse, apart from wierd and wonderful security which itself takes a great deal of time and energy, is to appeal to the better nature of users tempted by freeloading opportunities. Again, a rather pathetic solution, but that's really all there is.
Rob Young
You are wrong, Rob. The "most powerful companies in the world" have not attempted to change copyright law. They have attempted to use the existing laws in ways it was not intended to be used, in order to prop up a failing business model. This is a very different thing. Copyright laws are being subverted - and have been for some time, this is not new - so that only the best funded entities can afford to bring a case. What is so wrong with trying to break the status quo and use the law to protect those it is intended to?
You're not powerless unless you sit down and accept that you are, which is exactly what is currently happening.
H
hobofat
Guest
I would love to see examples of how people are attempting to use "existing laws in ways it was not intended to be used." Lots of generic language here without specific examples.
When people use the word "theft" here on the forum it's clearly in the layman's definition of the word, not the legal one. For the layman, the result is the same--the theft of intellectual property which while not criminal in most cases is still punishable with damages, restitution, attorney's fees, etc via a copyright infringement action. For large-scale distribution of copyrighted software/media, there are criminal laws (at least in the U.S.).
Changing law is no small task, and not simply a matter of approaching the "appropriate authorities." Even if you get the law changed because it is somehow deficient, getting it enforced is an entirely different matter. Enforcement costs money, and even if copyright infringement were made criminal (it actually is criminal in certain circumstances, mainly centering around large-scale distribution) how many developers could afford to enforce their rights in court? Police won't be going around rounding up illegal downloaders that's for sure. Heck, getting a non-binding resolution through city council is a monstrous task.
So for the developer who is busy meeting the demands of cantankerous niche customers with ridiculous expectations--who has time, money, power to lobby Congress/Parliament, etc. Or even pursue a civil action under existing law against one illegal downloader let alone finding one who has enough assets to make a judgment against them worthwhile after attorney's fees.
The point being...you're playing armchair marshal here, telling people to stop whining and telling them what they need to do, without any sense of the herculean effort required.
And before you lay into me and say I don't know what I'm talking about, I have helped write law and tried to get it passed through the legislature.
Examples of the law being used in unintended ways? Search "+RIAA +Prosecution".
The Copyright laws even were intended to protect people whose sole income came from works that could be reproduced. They were not there to provide an additional income stream for already massively profitable industries. Their use has been neither subtly nor slowly subverted so that those it was entirely intended to help are those least protected by it.
Currently, distribution for profit of copyrighted works is normally prosecuted in Europe (I don't know about the US) under fraud legislation. You are selling a counterfeit product. These cases do have Police involvement and are brought by the state because fraud, unlike copyright, is a criminal offence.
Therein lies the primary difference between civil and criminal law - a civil case is brought by an individual or entity against an individual or entity and the penalty is not criminal. It is an award of "damages", usually monetary. A criminal penalty is, by its very nature, criminal. Cases are brought by the state or crown, not an individual, and while the result may be a fine or non-custodial sentence, a record is kept (which is more of a deterrant than you'd think, when you suddenly find that you can't get a job or a loan) and the costs of the case are borne by the state, who will normally attempt to recover them from the defendant if convicted.
No, the Police will not go around "rounding up downloaders" because the downloaders are not the target. The uploaders are. No uploaders = no downloaders.
I'm not trying to pretend that this is a perfect solution, there will always be get outs and there will always be determined people who will get around it. How many states in the US with a capital punishment for murder have a zero murder rate year upon year? Just because a law exists doesn't mean people won't break it. But it cannot hurt to try and if you believe the amount of whining from certain developers, the situation cannot get any worse.
The Copyright laws even were intended to protect people whose sole income came from works that could be reproduced. They were not there to provide an additional income stream for already massively profitable industries. Their use has been neither subtly nor slowly subverted so that those it was entirely intended to help are those least protected by it.
Currently, distribution for profit of copyrighted works is normally prosecuted in Europe (I don't know about the US) under fraud legislation. You are selling a counterfeit product. These cases do have Police involvement and are brought by the state because fraud, unlike copyright, is a criminal offence.
Therein lies the primary difference between civil and criminal law - a civil case is brought by an individual or entity against an individual or entity and the penalty is not criminal. It is an award of "damages", usually monetary. A criminal penalty is, by its very nature, criminal. Cases are brought by the state or crown, not an individual, and while the result may be a fine or non-custodial sentence, a record is kept (which is more of a deterrant than you'd think, when you suddenly find that you can't get a job or a loan) and the costs of the case are borne by the state, who will normally attempt to recover them from the defendant if convicted.
No, the Police will not go around "rounding up downloaders" because the downloaders are not the target. The uploaders are. No uploaders = no downloaders.
I'm not trying to pretend that this is a perfect solution, there will always be get outs and there will always be determined people who will get around it. How many states in the US with a capital punishment for murder have a zero murder rate year upon year? Just because a law exists doesn't mean people won't break it. But it cannot hurt to try and if you believe the amount of whining from certain developers, the situation cannot get any worse.
robrealair
Members +
Yea, whatever Ian. I barely have time to sit down actually, except to work for a living. I don't know what you do for a living Ian, but I assure you every available moment I have is used up with a host of commitments, including family, learning, exercise and not least looking after my customers. I think you ought to calm down and stop telling me what I should do with my time. I already make my voice heard where it can be and I do not feel obliged to tell you the details, so would you kindly stop making assumptions and also kindly back off. Thank you.
Rob
No, Rob, I won't "back off". I will "back off" when the vast majority of developers on this planet stop whining about how terrible the world is, about how they're powerless and about how everyone else should help them and start suggesting how people can help them.
Yes, I do a damned stressful and damned difficult job all day. I once had a hobby that I could enjoy, that has now been taken over by people bleating about how unfair it all is that the engines aren't modelled on an aircraft, or why they can't afford to put the engines on an aircraft because it'll just be made available illegally anyway.
Before telling me to back off, you might like to try telling some of your contemporaries.
At least I'm suggesting a positive step forwards and not just whining about how unfair it is.
Yes, I do a damned stressful and damned difficult job all day. I once had a hobby that I could enjoy, that has now been taken over by people bleating about how unfair it all is that the engines aren't modelled on an aircraft, or why they can't afford to put the engines on an aircraft because it'll just be made available illegally anyway.
Before telling me to back off, you might like to try telling some of your contemporaries.
At least I'm suggesting a positive step forwards and not just whining about how unfair it is.
When I said this hobby is dying, I meant that from the heydays of about 5 years ago, I rekon we have about 50% of the dedicated simmers we had then and the take up of new simmers is lower.
Think of it as plastic aircraft modelling, in the 60s and 70s it was HUGE. Nowadays, it still goes on, but for a much smaller and more dedicated group.
I think we fool ourselves to think we are a big part of the virtual world, I wonder how many copies of FSX were sold compared to the best sellers in the charts?
When I was involved in payware, we had a product with a good level of security and it did indeed cause more havoc than it was worth. Pirates are like hackers, they will find a way to get through any security, it just takes a bit longer on the 'very secure' codes. They love a challange!
I think Sibwings had the record to be cracked (almost a year I think), I was happy to buy the Safir and even happier to get the FSX version free almost two years later! That is how to get a loyal customer, I have the Bird Dog money ready and waiting!
Think of it as plastic aircraft modelling, in the 60s and 70s it was HUGE. Nowadays, it still goes on, but for a much smaller and more dedicated group.
I think we fool ourselves to think we are a big part of the virtual world, I wonder how many copies of FSX were sold compared to the best sellers in the charts?
When I was involved in payware, we had a product with a good level of security and it did indeed cause more havoc than it was worth. Pirates are like hackers, they will find a way to get through any security, it just takes a bit longer on the 'very secure' codes. They love a challange!
I think Sibwings had the record to be cracked (almost a year I think), I was happy to buy the Safir and even happier to get the FSX version free almost two years later! That is how to get a loyal customer, I have the Bird Dog money ready and waiting!
SpaceWeevil
SOH-CM-2024
Well, clearly the thing to do is let the people who have all the answers (and won't be wrong, or put up with the slightest correction or challenge under any circumstances) sort it all out. I shall continue to support decent payware for as long as it's available but, frankly, I can do that without any of this arrogant and self-righteous bollocks - and there's more to life than cartoon aeroplanes anyway. Over & out.
C
Cerberus
Guest
Well as stated in my original post I have been going to school and taking 18-21 hours of courses per semester, I’ve been out since December but in those 4 years I could neither afford the time nor the funding to go through months in a court. I couldn't take off off from school and completely stop all development just to file suits on people that allegedly only pirate because they are poor and couldn’t afford to reimburse me even if I won. As stated earlier the only thing that can be done is to appeal to peoples better nature and provide them with information so that they can see the direction FS development is going, and with that information in hand maybe it will motivate us all to step up and do the right thing.
Believe it or not we do file information with the FBI Internet Crime Complaint Center, and contact web hosts providers to the illegal nature of the websites they are hosting. I have also filed complaints with paypal because paypal addresses were being used to collect donations for these illegal websites. Do you think any of this helped? There is a reason developers feel powerless.
Believe it or not we do file information with the FBI Internet Crime Complaint Center, and contact web hosts providers to the illegal nature of the websites they are hosting. I have also filed complaints with paypal because paypal addresses were being used to collect donations for these illegal websites. Do you think any of this helped? There is a reason developers feel powerless.
jmig
SOH-CM-2025
[humor attempt]I resemble that remark!! :mixedsmi: [/humor attempt]
