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The Big Bang Theory

Silver Fox said:
Willy, thank you for a very precise demonstration of the anthropic principle in action. :)
Click to expand...


As I see it, the anthropic principle is no more vested in facts than the religions creations stories.

The religious creation story says that because one million plus things happened precisely exactly at the proper time, at precisely the proper sequence, and precisely at the proper amplitude; shows that there was a guiding hand, i.e., Creator.

The anthropic principle proponents say that that because one million plus things happened precisely exactly at the proper time, at precisely the proper sequence, and precisely at the proper amplitude to have life; shows that man in his arrogance has assumed these things were done for him.

Neither camp can prove anything! It stills comes down to faith. Either faith in a God or faith in coincidences.
 
Who created the stuff that the "Big Bang Theory" used to "create' the world and humans?

Kevin
 
jmig, believers in the anthropic principle fail to comprehend that no matter what form life takes, if intelligence develops then that intelligence will think the Universe was created specifically for it.

Logically, it's much like dropping a glass on the floor and having it shatter... and then reaching the conclusion that gravity was created for the express purpose of destroying your glassware! :)

Weins, I've already covered this from a scientific viewpoint. We lack the capacity to imagine the pre-existing conditions, therefore we cannot formulate a hypothesis of how those conditions came into being. There is one theory that might work though...

If you believe that the Universe will cease expansion at some point and collapse, then it follows that the energy release of the final cataclysm might form a replacement Universe. Think of a sine-wave, zero isn't the beginning, it's the middle. Interesting theory, as yet there is no observation evidence to support it. The destruction of one Universe to form it's replacement also creates an inherent problem... information cannot be passed from one to the other, so even if we could envision the previous Universe... we can't understand it.

Go Figure!
 
Silver Fox said:
If you believe that the Universe will cease expansion at some point and collapse, then it follows that the energy release of the final cataclysm might form a replacement Universe. Think of a sine-wave, zero isn't the beginning, it's the middle. Interesting theory, as yet there is no observation evidence to support it. The destruction of one Universe to form it's replacement also creates an inherent problem... information cannot be passed from one to the other, so even if we could envision the previous Universe... we can't understand it.

Go Figure!
Click to expand...



Very cool input Silver Fox.

In the Bible, it says we are not capable of understanding 'the big picture', that we cannot fathom God and other such concepts. When I say that, I mean that the utterly incredible size of the spectrum of the concept is something we were not designed with/for... Beyond our comprehension as a being, we arent capable as a human, to understand such huge concepts..

I, on the other hand, seek to find out more about 'the big picture', about life and the Universe. Maybe I will be one of the few that gets to see the 'blueprints', the 'library', and talk with some of the big guys.


I would like to add something to this thread, one that is a daily interface or interaction with mankind, and still not understood that well.. and that is dreams... How can we meet people and have interesting adventures and remember them in such detail as though we were there??

If we remember in pictures as though we were there, like movie footage, then how can it be that when we drift to sleep, we find ourselves flying in a plane, relaxing on a beach, shopping through a store, having a conversation with a person on wild concepts, then awaken back in our bed?

How in the world does that work???


Think about that one.. Take a moment and wonder, where in the world dreams come from, and 'how' (delivery method = dimension? cable? universe? spirit? wierd chemical? something that was in last nights dinner? a 'program' system that exists 'somewhere' and allows for humanity to learn from? etc....)


That is one I would like to learn more about.. (without the nightmares....)




Bill
 
I read an interesting sci-fi book years ago that explored the concept that dreams/nightmares were spillovers from parallel Universes. When folks were asleep and most receptive they could pick up the faint signal, guided by what was closest to the mind as it fell asleep.

Interesting concept.
 
Silver Fox said:
jmig, believers in the anthropic principle fail to comprehend that no matter what form life takes, if intelligence develops then that intelligence will think the Universe was created specifically for it.

Logically, it's much like dropping a glass on the floor and having it shatter... and then reaching the conclusion that gravity was created for the express purpose of destroying your glassware! :)

Weins, I've already covered this from a scientific viewpoint. We lack the capacity to imagine the pre-existing conditions, therefore we cannot formulate a hypothesis of how those conditions came into being. There is one theory that might work though...

If you believe that the Universe will cease expansion at some point and collapse, then it follows that the energy release of the final cataclysm might form a replacement Universe. Think of a sine-wave, zero isn't the beginning, it's the middle. Interesting theory, as yet there is no observation evidence to support it. The destruction of one Universe to form it's replacement also creates an inherent problem... information cannot be passed from one to the other, so even if we could envision the previous Universe... we can't understand it.

Go Figure!
Click to expand...

Silver, I have no argument with your analogy. I may not have made myself clear. I am not saying that believers in the anthropic principle are also believers in a Universal intelligence, force, Creator, i.e., God. My reference to "anthropic principle" was for people like Richard Darkins who do not believe in a God created universe.

I am saying that the "anthropic principle" has no more evidence to support it than the Bible's or any other creation story. It too, is based on unprovable assumptions. Science can often discover the mechanism. However it is not a good tool to discover the intent. That is the job of philosophers and religion. In the end it comes down to faith. Faith in God or faith in multiple coincidences, or trial and error.

Faith is the belief in something without proof. Otherwise it would not be faith. The apostle St. Paul expressed it well in his often quoted... three most important things are Faith, Hope, and Charity (Love)... statement. He ends it by saying in the end only Love will remain.

This is because he believed in a Heaven. Once you are in Heaven you no longer need faith, because you have certainty. You no longer have to hope there is a Heaven, because you are there. All that remains is love.
 
jmig said:
The apostle St. Paul expressed it well in his often quoted... three most important things are Faith, Hope, and Charity (Love)... statement. He ends it by saying in the end only Love will remain.

This is because he believed in a Heaven. Once you are in Heaven you no longer need faith, because you have certainty. You no longer have to hope there is a Heaven, because you are there. All that remains is love.
Click to expand...


Powerful and beautiful!

Thank you! :)
 

Hebrews 11:1 (Amplified Bible)

Hebrews 11
1NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, [a]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].


-Eli and Hannah
 
Wow Jim and Eli and Hannah,

Some great biblical quotes!




In speaking about 'creationism', there is a book in the Bible where God talks on when He created Earth and the solar system. Now, for non believers, you'll probably say 'riiiiiiiiiiiiiight' and I can see your point of view. But... (but) if you read the parts where God defends Himself, and speaks of how He made things, the hair will stand up on the back of your neck.

For instance, and this was written several thousand years ago, He tells Job, 'Were you there when I set the distance of the Earth to the source of Light?' He talks of 'sculpting the planet, setting up its orbit and making sure its the proper distance from the sun. It sounds like a guy who made a building, how he laid its foundation, sculpted the exterior...

Now, mankind really didnt start talking about Earth being a round planet and the sun being a star until around the time of Columbus and some famous Astronomers, so how could this 3,000 year old scripture be talking about setting up planetary orbits around stars?


So... for the non believers, is there such a thing as creationism? Is there a 'very big Being' that possibly created 'this place' we call home? Could it be that the Architect of Earth visits and actually can talk with the inhabitants?


Some very powerful concepts, and they are not for the ones that do not have the ability to think outside of the box.

A closed mind cannot learn, cannot see new things, understand new concepts. Sometimes.. . learning new things, new concepts, can be the hardest 'road' you can take, and many are not ready. Growing can hurt...





I still think though that the 747 story is hilarious... Huge atomic explosion! Massive... then the dust begins clearing.. and there, sitting out in the countryside, is this big, brand new, shiny Boeing 747-400, fully fueled, GPS and gyros' humming along, systems on, battery systems running, new seats, galleys, state of the art cabin... All from an explosion. ;)



Bill
 
Wait a minute... gotta call you on this Bill!

Galileo was accused of heresy for suggesting that the Earth was not the centre of the solar system. Simple observation told folks that something was going round... but when the Scripture was written the Earth was flat!
 
Silver Fox said:
Wait a minute... gotta call you on this Bill!

Galileo was accused of heresy for suggesting that the Earth was not the centre of the solar system. Simple observation told folks that something was going round... but when the Scripture was written the Earth was flat!
Click to expand...

Ahhhh.. Ok, then how can it be that Shaoel (a 'location' in the spirit world where the dead went to) which was located 'in the center of Earth'. How can you have a center of Earth in a flat Earth?

:d


Also, Babylonian cuniform text tablets have perfect maps and names of all the planets about 3,000 to 5,000 years ago with the sun in the center of the Solar System. But... Back then we had 10 planets.. One is gone now. (Must be the asteroid belt?).



Bill
 
The ancient Jews and other Semitic people of the area saw the world as a giant rock slab sitting on top of pillars. (Think of the Greek letter pi symbol) The sky was a giant dome called the firmament upon which the stars or lights were attached to fixed tracks. There was water above this dome and rain came through floodgates or holes in the dome.

Beneath the giant slab of earth was Sheol, where the dead went,and more water which made the rivers and seas.

This was the world of the oral Creation stories around 2000 B.C. The even older Babylonian creation story Enuma Elish is similar in its views of the world.

I think one of the Greek mathematicians was the first person to determine the earth was round.
 
Some great profound remarks here.

But I am more inclined to cut myself more "slack". I believe the planet is being led to destruction by a race of inferior creatures who place blind trust in their own culturally dictated concept of "intelligence".

Caz
 
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2>"There are no passengers on spaceship earth. We are all crew."</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

-- Herbert "Marshall" McLuhan
 
All i Know is the world was here when i got here
and hopefully still be here when i leave :amen:
Folks dont go getting personal here
this is getting into one of "those" threads :gossip:
H
 
The staff is getting complaints on this thread. Anymore and we'll close it.
 
Willy said:
The staff is getting complaints on this thread. Anymore and we'll close it.
Click to expand...

Willy, would you or Henry please tell us just what is breaching the rules on this thread. It seems to me to be about as benign as anything in this section?

I know that we have had a few threads where people have gotten insulted and feelings hurt. However, IMO this is fast approaching the point where PCism will shut down this entire section.

We are a large group spanning many continents, faiths, ethnic backgrounds, and political view points. This, I believe, has always been one of the strong points of this community. We get to see different perspectives. To learn from one and another.

However, if we are to communicate and educate each other on the various ways of viewing/living life, we need to be able to express ourselves without the fear that someone, somewhere, just might find something we say offensive.

In the above posts I saw two different viewpoints being expressed without proselytizing from either side. I saw more acrimony in the volumes of Chicken Little's, "The sky is falling down" threads about the apparent demise of MSFS series.

I am not trying to make life difficult for anyone, I just want some balance. A balance I fear we are rapidly losing.
 
A more innocuous thread I could not hope to read. It is interesting, mild mannered and makes a nice read before bed-time. Only Creationists might complain and as the Universe is only some 3000 odd years old for them isn't it a little early to complain? ;-)
 
Some folks didn't appreciate being alluded to as "delusional" with regards to their religious preferences.

Sounds far more plausible and believable than the goddidit delusion.
Click to expand...
 
This in my opinion
is a thread that i could consider a no no
Religion, personal, has not gone to politics yet
but it mostly has been polite and open
i stand on the fence watching

Quote JMIG
Willy, would you or Henry please tell us just what is breaching the rules on this thread. It seems to me to be about as benign as anything in this section?

a couple of personal attacks

H
 
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