The Future Of CFS2,

I agree with Stratobat
If you are going to look at upgrading CFS 2 then you need to start with the stock game first. Leave out the other theaters, their respective aircraft and scenery and focus primarily on a package that will address the ground textures and scenery, airbases, aircraft and other less than visible components ad infinitum.

This would serve two purposes... The first is that you create a patch for the default game to bring it up to modern standards and the second is that it serves as a sounding board for any future development in this regard.

If you start aiming too high you're going to end up with something that is both protracted and convoluted which will in turn make future development problematic. Keep it simple, keep it small and keep it on track. Have a defined goal.
Repair the broken dlls.
Tutorials on the best way to play the game.
I am looking in to repairing the waether dll. It is incompleate. the snow was
disconnected so it will not work.
In the stock game do you see snow ground textures, No. in the read me files do it say you can have snow, yes. Why you may ask there is no snow. Well I think,
Due to the processing speed of computers at the time of release, I fill they realised they had to save mb, for saving load up time and fps during play time.It is only now we can expand this game with our faster computers and references on the net to break in to dlls and repair them for our own use and to share with our community and for no profit.
​
 
I don’t have time this evening to draft a proper response which the nature of this thread demands. There are a few items, however, that I am comfortably with dashing off now.

I wish I had written my initial post just a bit more carefully. Perhaps the title should have been something like "The Holy Grail – Well I Can Dream Can’t I?" Also, the first line should have started with "I wish … " rather than "We should … ".

I give my complements to all those who have responded. The replies have been polite, professional, enthusiastic, well informed … I could go on and on. And all from a post that a reply of "Ali Cat – are you nuts?" would have been well taken by me.

I have recently contacted an old friend of mine. He is an ace "c" coder (among other things) of some world renown. The reason I contacted him is that for the "Your First Gauge" tutorial I have been promising I want an open source compiler. I have ideas, yes, but he knows. We have since spoken briefly. I have several other broad questions for him but I have added to this list what is involved in initiating a substantial open source project. I would be happy to share his response here if any are interested.
　

Sam aka: "Ali Cat"
 
I can understand why Talon and some of the other old hands feel the way they do. I to am an old hand to CFS2 and was here from the start. I have seen people come and people go and some return just to leave again and some to stay.I have seen new people come and go as well.Everytime we get a new group of people it is the same thing lets improve the sim.Then they see just how much work it will be and you never here anything else from them. The point is you have got to be dedicated to getting the work done if not don`t start.What some of the old hands are saying is don`t just talk the talk be ready to walk the walk for what ever time it is going to take to get the job done.

The 1st thing is to find severial people that know C++ like the back of there hand.The next step is to make sure that they are on board for the long trip and then we can decide what we want done and where to start.For those of us that are like myself who are lucky enough to just be able to turn on a pc with out messing things up well we can give them ideas on what we would like done and even come up with a few work arounds.We can all help by posting what has been done and needs to be done.
 
Hi Sam,
I see a little clearer where you're coming from. Maybe rather than thinking BIG, i.e. a whole re-write, why not make a few useful changes to the sim. Such as the day colour of the sky, the start height for QC, a choice of snow in the weather selection (mentioned already) or AI characteristics. There is a huge list of 'wish-list or if-only' tweaks, which would be great to get done and be much appreciated.

To be honest, we have all messed around with, updated, posted and uploaded way beyond M$ copyright infringement, and they haven't batted an eyelid or shown any interest at all. So as long as the modded code is not for sale or comes close to be a commercial thing, I really can't see a problem with another mod. BUT open source definitely not, if you do it yourself, so be it. Open source to the world would be a big no-no, and would almost certainly get M$ down on you like a ton of bricks.

Your handle of c/c++ and what you've done already with gauges, shows you could do much, and especially if you have a guru to call on.


I can't speak for all (but really I think everyone would sit-up and listen..and then help) if you could show us something or started the process.

Cheers Shessi
 
I like Stratobats option of "Baby steps first", then take it from there.

As regards numbers of people, when one looks at the popular downloads both here and at Simviation, lets say 150 downloads from each site, plus say another 80 downloads from the other sites, then we end up with a figure of about 380 downloads. There is obviously a dedicated team of "Master Gurus" who have done much, some have left and others are still about. Newbies are often in the dark about what has been done before.
There are now Mods to make FSX "Combat" capable, with many defectors to the "Dark side".

I have done a few repaints and still consider myself an apprentice, and have started looking at design. Major problems for me is my work situation which has been not the best for a few years now, with some very heavy family issues added in as well. Finding time and getting the enthusiasm back has been a huge struggle at times. There are others who have their own experiences but done heaps, Rami bless his soul is one of them.

By the time we get through the technical issues, personal issues, preferences, likes/dislikes of the 380 persons we will all need to work out what way we are going to row this boat. 380 pairs of paddles going flat out in all directions is going to make one hell of a splash but I suspect not go very far.

Personally I hope CFS2 is around for another 20 years !!!!!!

Full respects to the Gurus that have kept it going so far, hopefully us apprentices can do the Gurus proud. We the apprentices also need wise encouragement from the Gurus when required.

During WW2 Australia produced a tank called the Sentinel depsite having no background in such heavy weapons. It has been speculated that one of the reasons the tank was so far advanced (a 17pdr gun was mounted in a turret way before the Sherman firefly came about) was that the Australians started with a blank canvass. I'm not saying that we should do the same, and NO I do not have the answers let alone the resources, but hey dudes, we can dream about what we would like to see, and sometimes dreams do come true.
 
My two cents...

Good morning,

I like it when I see people discussing ways to improve CFS2, so let me offer another point. One of the things I've found is that the best contributors to the CFS2 community are those who are naturally inquisitive and seek to understand, improving through the process of trial and error, not being afraid to fail.

I understand that working in mission builder, GMAX, FSDS, and other software that helps to create CFS2 is not easy, and can be intimidating. When discussing the future of CFS2, we should think as teachers. Those of us with the knowledge and experience should mentor those who are learning, making ourselves available at all times.

I can't speak for anyone else, but nothing would make me happier than to have long conversations on Skype, sharing my computer screen with a willing listener that wants to learn some of the MB secrets I've stumbled onto in the last three-and-a-half years. :jump:
 
A big +1 to Rami. I've already learned a great deal from everyone here about the workings of the game in a relatively short time and I want to learn more.

And Talon please don't be offended. It could just be I misinterpreted your writing style.

I just think that any discussion is good even if the likely outcome will be very little. You might have seen the topic many times before but owing to new developments and new members I'm sure the discussion will differ at least slightly
 
The 1st think I would do,after giving it some thought is to try and correct the AI. MS said that they didn`t design the AI program to get the most out of the AI in combat.I would like to be able to controll the altitude and speed of the AI ac from the mission builder.One way to check is to see how they controlled the AI FS2000.
 
FOLLOWING THIS INTERESTING THREAD

and it almost sounds like herding a group of cats!
While I believe that it is a great idea, it has many pitfalls that have been alluded to. The main ones are time allocation, personalities, and preferences. I see one thing as a preferred add-on and someone else may not give it the same priority. Also, there is the problem of a great contributor feeling slighted because someone elses work is chosen.
To set up theaters by committee is like being a blindman in a minefield. No matter what you choose the decision will end in disaster for someone. Hurting that someones feelings and their possible loss of future contributions to the sim.
I personnally have the computer programming skills of a rock so I am no help, but what I believe should be the chosen path is as has been siad. Start with those functions of the game that are incomplete and can be addressed without anyone personally being offended, ie;
- weather, AI ( which to me seems to fly with my computer skills! I have personally flown better that it in real life!).
-Then move onto the geography.
There are many meshes out there that probably could be combined to give a real-life interpretation of the world.
-Sky colors ( as has been addressed).
- Water colors. As I have personally seen, and I am sure Talon and others also have seen, the ocean is vibrant to drab in different parts of the world. Like the Yellow Sea for instance. ( I could think of a few jokes here but I will refrain!)
- Clouds. Appearance and changeability, etc.

The list could go on, but what I am trying to say is stick to the games WORLD ENVIROMENT and operability for now. :salute:
 
Sticky Note Request

Just a thought - would keeping this "alive" as a sticky engender more continued input ?
 
HERDING CATS!

Dang SC, That is one hard profession you chose for a second career! I have only one that has adopted me by its' choice and herding it is sometimes challenging. Got around that with addicting it to soft treats. Now all I do is crinkle the bag abd PRESTO!! Instant cat!!!!:icon_lol:

As regards to the game I hope some of the benign factors are addressed as a operability sounding board before MAJOR changes. I will be no help there as when people talk about C++ I think they saw my math and computer course grades in school!
 
Made Sticky - Yikes!

Shessi,

This thread has too many intertwined strands for me to give them all their just due. It’s just that yours, in terms of me personally, is quite perceptive. On your "Maybe rather than thinking BIG … " comment that is actually what I see my CFS2 mod future as. I still play the game but what I have found is that for me the attraction is poking and prodding under the hood. For example, I did one once look into the AI issue. Is was a brief study but enough "what if’s" lit in my brain that someday I want to do a more complete exploration. If you add to your list mastering scasm then I think your archery is perfection.

To the thread topic,

That Holy Grail dream, that it won’t happen - that’s were my money is too. My Guess - what would it take? A 30 to 40 person dream team going at it 7 to 10 years? But too that it won’t happen is just one very, very safe bet, and that it can’t happen is just plain false.

Please note that I am not trying to drag anyone back to the Holy Grail/pipe dream subject (perhaps enough said?). This thread has taken on a life of it’s own since the start which I see as a complete positive. I’m in the process of stashing away all the salient points, the PM’s and the emails. It’s good stuff and that’s because of all of you.
　

Now wasn’t I working on a gauge or something?
AC
 
Hi Sam/AC,
It's not a bad sim is it?!! 11+ years old and people still passionate about it, still tweaking and modding like mad.

I, for one, would be very interested in understanding the guts of the beastie, so count me in to lend a hand, if you need it.

One of the last persons with knowledge to really talk about this was Sander, you may be about to take the first step towards the holy grail......

Good luck!

Shessi
 
Yes, I know this thread appears one or two times a year. And I answer almost the same way.
I think we all like to have the perfect sim. Unfortunately there are not so much people around who like to have the perfect sim, we cfs2,fsx, cfs3 and similar sim's player are mostly a bit "advanced" in years and so we are not the main target of the PC games industry, for them it's all about money, if they realize that there are a very lot of people who are willing to buy a "perfect flight sim" they will make it. So we are not enough I think!
In my opinion FSx is close to perfect, and would be if they make a Combat Flight Sim out of it with all the possibilities of the CFS3 aircraft and CFS2 mission builder. But who is willing to pay for it? which company is willing to make such a simulator? who has the skills and the money to make it?
I still hope that once in the future there will be such a Combat flight sim realized, but I doubt it.
Wolfi
 
My 2 [LINESTRIKE]yen[/LINESTRIKE] cents.

As Wolfi mentioned above, flight sim is not so popular amongst general gamers. Thus developers can not expect money to compensate for the investments. It's sad to say that I'm inclind to think there will unlikely be a new Combat sim released.

From the technological point of view, FPS games could be the foundation of the flight sim. Due to the popularity and profit expected, they implement most advanced graphics and state-of-the-art physics without exception. Both can be great possibility for building planes, flight models and scenaries. (Let's put it aside that there will be vast amout of time and effort needed to build a whole flight-sim environment over a FPS engine.)

From the point of view of terrain, I know that FPS engine is more geard toward a local area and expressing it's detail than a global area and it's comprehensiveness, but I believe it's the matter of memory and HDD space, that the time will solve.

Regards

Daisuke
 
igacci said:
...From the technological point of view, FPS games could be the foundation of the flight sim... From the point of view of terrain, I know that FPS engine is more geard toward a local area and expressing it's detail than a global area and it's comprehensiveness, but I believe it's the matter of memory and HDD space, that the time will solve.
Click to expand...

Duly noted Igacci. Just keep in mind that any new age flight sim based on an FPS platform will likely end up as nothing more than an eye-candy, arcade-styled game, in keeping with the current trend of instant gratification in virtual FPS combat. That wouldn't be enough for my money. MS has spoiled me...i expect full or near full immersion flight training incorporated into my combat sim, complete with click-able gauges and all flight controls which i can manipulate voluntarily. An FPS platform will likely skip all of that to get to the "fun" parts. Yeah, we could get a bonified, high-detail cockpit view, instead of just a simple rear view external only, but would we be able to "touch" anything in the cockpit?

And what about tweaking flight models and modifying loadouts to suit personal preferences? No, that would be canned as well, with a "do not touch" copyright added, or some kind of kill switch that shuts you down if you modify anything,, even if you only fly offline.

Touching enhanced scenery, i like it as much as the next guy, but for combat, my main focus has and always will be flight performance and aircraft detail. An FPS game may offer the authentic visual detailing, but would we be stuck with the developers' interpretations in flight modeling, ala the IL2 series? Fortunately, MS had the foresight to leave this door open to the user's interpretation...we can change whatever we don't like about a flight model. If i think a P-51D should be able to hold a tight 6g 360 degree turn at 300 mph without dropping like a rock or max at 430 mph on WEP in straight level flight, i should be allowed to achieve that in my purchased game.
 
Hi Bearcat.

About implementing full-immersion world, it should be possible with current 3D engines.

Well I had better not to say "FPS" but "game engines" instead.

I'm not thinking to build an arcade style combat sim in a specific FPS titles like Battle Field series or Crysis seriels. I'm thinking to utilize the game engines of them more in-depth.

Game studios like Valve software are willing to support comunity mods. For example, Valves releases SDK sets that are very well organized and has plenty of informations. And the developpers are very close to the comunity (unlike MS!).
And there are mods that are completely different from the original game. The best known one is Counter strike (a multi player game) that is derived from Half-life (originally a single player game).

Current game engine has vast flexibility that it can morph itself into completely different thing. So, my expectation is that we might be able to take advantage of it's physics simulation for better flight model, and of course, the state of the art graphics. No need to mention for it's combat abilities.
The physics system most likely make the things more and more complex though.
The depth of immersion would be depend on how far we can implement the physics.

The interactive gauges are possilble as I believe. As you can see in 3D style role playing games, interaction with objects (with a mouse) is available. Thus, interactive gauge should not be a big problem (only a matter of programing).

That's why I think the FPS (I better say it's game engine) could be a possibility.

Anyway, I'm not optimistic that developers would go for a flight sim based on current game engine. But it's kind of fun to imagine a possibility of a new sim.

Regards

Daisuke
 
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