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The Staff of SOH
The Future of Epic Aircraft Company
- Thread starter Lionheart
- Start date
Land Rover - as they were owned by Ford, then BMW and then Tata ....Rover (and MG) is owned by the Chinese.
There is a debate in NZ at the moment about a Chinese Company buying up a large number of Dairy Farms, all owned by one NZ family but now in receivership. The dairy industry here is life blood of the NZ economy and the fact that it is land, makes it a touchy subject.
K
Ken Stallings
Guest
You are right, patriotism cannot be coerced from the barrel of a gun, nor by any other method that resorts to incarceration or violence. But, I certainly think it's time for it to be used as a justification for scorning.
I do not believe that good business must exist sans patriotism. In fact, I'm convinced that without patriotism in the board room, your nation is in serious danger of destroying itself, and believe many of the current problems we face are rooted in unpatriotic decisions.
Cheers,
Ken
Matt Wynn
Charter Member
another thing made in china.... the famous British Black Cab's... and yeah Land Rover, they stopped making good things in the early 90's, i'm sure SteveB would agree with me here (We're both land rover nutters), my personal favourites are the Pinkies and Dinkies, they can be good fun 
any new news on Epic?
any new news on Epic?
Hey Smoothie,
No news yet. Supposedly the Chinese had one a odd 'bid' that they submitted after the courts declared that the American firm had one. So there is a big debate going on. I havent been able to find anything out in the Bend Oregon news since 2 days ago.
<--- land rover FREAK here..
Had a classic, almost got a P-38. Some of the newers are nice but I doubt they could get muddy and climb a mountain like the good ole Rangies could. They were bullet proof...
Bill
No news yet. Supposedly the Chinese had one a odd 'bid' that they submitted after the courts declared that the American firm had one. So there is a big debate going on. I havent been able to find anything out in the Bend Oregon news since 2 days ago.
<--- land rover FREAK here..
Had a classic, almost got a P-38. Some of the newers are nice but I doubt they could get muddy and climb a mountain like the good ole Rangies could. They were bullet proof...
Bill
Francois
FS Veteran
I hate losing Fokker and KLM as 'national companies' as much as anyone will hate losing theirs... but....
in the end it is the greed of the corporations, and ultimately, of the CONSUMERS that have forced all this gloom upon 'us'. If people would be prepared to pay a higher price for 'national' products, or if they would accept lower wages, then there would have been much less of a draw to the cheap labor countries to begin with.
Another factor in this is that those countries (like China, India and other Asian entities) have a MUCH larger population than US and Europe combined, are now getting MONEY because WE pay them, and hence are becoming rich. In one certain province alone there are already more millionaires and billionaires (in US$!) than in all of the US !
At the same time they still aren't 'used' to being rich (as we spoilt westerners are) and hence will work for less, both in terms of pay and in terms of situation.
So there are two things that are irreversible currently:
1. China will be THE largest power on the world i general, and on aviation as well
2. Much, if not all of it, is our own doing
I fully agree it is NOT what we like and would want, but nevertheless a fact of life by now, so we'd better get used to it an ADAPT ! Just simple 'protectionism' will not do it. Educating our people and make them a little more modest before it is too late would be more effective. Working a LOT harder will be needed too.
Because the alternative will most likely be that the US and Europe will become the low-cost labor countries for India and China otherwise :salute:
in the end it is the greed of the corporations, and ultimately, of the CONSUMERS that have forced all this gloom upon 'us'. If people would be prepared to pay a higher price for 'national' products, or if they would accept lower wages, then there would have been much less of a draw to the cheap labor countries to begin with.
Another factor in this is that those countries (like China, India and other Asian entities) have a MUCH larger population than US and Europe combined, are now getting MONEY because WE pay them, and hence are becoming rich. In one certain province alone there are already more millionaires and billionaires (in US$!) than in all of the US !
At the same time they still aren't 'used' to being rich (as we spoilt westerners are) and hence will work for less, both in terms of pay and in terms of situation.
So there are two things that are irreversible currently:
1. China will be THE largest power on the world i general, and on aviation as well
2. Much, if not all of it, is our own doing
I fully agree it is NOT what we like and would want, but nevertheless a fact of life by now, so we'd better get used to it an ADAPT ! Just simple 'protectionism' will not do it. Educating our people and make them a little more modest before it is too late would be more effective. Working a LOT harder will be needed too.
Because the alternative will most likely be that the US and Europe will become the low-cost labor countries for India and China otherwise :salute:
warchild
Charter Member
i live in bend, and over the last few years cirrus has gone away, now epic is going away, the people here are hurting. the running and not too funny joke here has allways been that Bend is "poverty with a view". the logging industry has moved west, and aircraft were all that replaced it. The influx of well off californians has driven the real estate prices through the roof and bend itself has become known as the second most expensive place to live in america. i dont know how true that is, but the economy is way down here. Even gas station jobs are rare.
These are patriotic people here. If china buys epic, no one will work for em. They wont work for no communist no matter how much money it would bring in. Damned proud myself to be a member of the Bend "Band of Brothers" veterans group.
The other side of the coin is that over the last several years, the FAA has had a campaign going against general aviation. theyve tried every way but sunday to get GA pilots to foot not only their own bills but the bills of the major carriers as well, and theyve been closing down airports left and right where they can. if it werent for AOPA and the dedication of their team, GA may not exist.
The one good thing is that we're all mountain folk here. We have more jeeps per capita than anywhere else in the united states, and for good reason. Life is always hard here, so we just hunker down a little more do what we gotta do, and we get by..
Pam
These are patriotic people here. If china buys epic, no one will work for em. They wont work for no communist no matter how much money it would bring in. Damned proud myself to be a member of the Bend "Band of Brothers" veterans group.
The other side of the coin is that over the last several years, the FAA has had a campaign going against general aviation. theyve tried every way but sunday to get GA pilots to foot not only their own bills but the bills of the major carriers as well, and theyve been closing down airports left and right where they can. if it werent for AOPA and the dedication of their team, GA may not exist.
The one good thing is that we're all mountain folk here. We have more jeeps per capita than anywhere else in the united states, and for good reason. Life is always hard here, so we just hunker down a little more do what we gotta do, and we get by..
Pam
Hey Pam,
What are you doing up at 3:30AM?
:ernae:
Thanks for the background on Bend Oregon. I didnt know you were up there.
Too bad about Cirrus and the Columbia.
When I worked for Rover, I used to think about the Factory and Solihul (the town they are/were made in). They produced 200 to 400 vehicles a week when I was working for them. They did well, worked hard, and made a cool SUV, the first SUV actually on the market. Tons of jobs there back then. I wonder what they do now.
I guess the countries cannot just support the companies themselves, as they have tried to do in the past. Its too bad Land Rover couldnt have just purchased their own stock some how and gained their own freedom. I remember when Rover group finally gained a 'pirated' grip upon Land Rover, just prior to BMW purchasing the entire group. It was a depressing time. Land Rover had always been in the green (monetarily) while Rover Group had never been able to make a profit. That was the real beginning of the end at that time... At first, BMW looked like some real hope and promise, then... off to ford... eeks..
If Toyota and BMW and other such high quality car companies can successfully make cars here, we must be good for manufacturing... I believe in this country. I refuse to lose faith in us.... Perhaps another airplane company will start up in Bend! Id sure like a try at it.
Bill
What are you doing up at 3:30AM?
:ernae:
Thanks for the background on Bend Oregon. I didnt know you were up there.
Too bad about Cirrus and the Columbia.
When I worked for Rover, I used to think about the Factory and Solihul (the town they are/were made in). They produced 200 to 400 vehicles a week when I was working for them. They did well, worked hard, and made a cool SUV, the first SUV actually on the market. Tons of jobs there back then. I wonder what they do now.
I guess the countries cannot just support the companies themselves, as they have tried to do in the past. Its too bad Land Rover couldnt have just purchased their own stock some how and gained their own freedom. I remember when Rover group finally gained a 'pirated' grip upon Land Rover, just prior to BMW purchasing the entire group. It was a depressing time. Land Rover had always been in the green (monetarily) while Rover Group had never been able to make a profit. That was the real beginning of the end at that time... At first, BMW looked like some real hope and promise, then... off to ford... eeks..
If Toyota and BMW and other such high quality car companies can successfully make cars here, we must be good for manufacturing... I believe in this country. I refuse to lose faith in us.... Perhaps another airplane company will start up in Bend! Id sure like a try at it.
Bill
Francois
FS Veteran
Just in from AVweb, and related:
"...............
Bombardier has reached a $3.9 billion deal with China Development Bank Corporation's (CDBC) leasing department that could give it an important edge in selling aircraft in China. The bank has agreed to make the money available to airlines interested in buying aircraft from Bombardier. Although the financing will be available to overseas carriers, the funding will make it easier for domestic carriers to finance purchases from Bombardier, which is developing the 100-to-130-seat CSeries airliners. The fuselage for the aircraft will be built by Shenyang Aircraft Corp., which broke ground on the new factory last week.
The CDBC deal will be available for pre-delivery payment financing, delivery financing and leasing solutions to customers of Bombardier's CSeries, Q400 and CRJ aircraft. China is expected to be among the biggest customers for new airliners in coming years. It is developing its own regional jet..........".
If our OWN bankers are not coming up with the money, someone ELSE will...... !
"...............
Bombardier has reached a $3.9 billion deal with China Development Bank Corporation's (CDBC) leasing department that could give it an important edge in selling aircraft in China. The bank has agreed to make the money available to airlines interested in buying aircraft from Bombardier. Although the financing will be available to overseas carriers, the funding will make it easier for domestic carriers to finance purchases from Bombardier, which is developing the 100-to-130-seat CSeries airliners. The fuselage for the aircraft will be built by Shenyang Aircraft Corp., which broke ground on the new factory last week.
The CDBC deal will be available for pre-delivery payment financing, delivery financing and leasing solutions to customers of Bombardier's CSeries, Q400 and CRJ aircraft. China is expected to be among the biggest customers for new airliners in coming years. It is developing its own regional jet..........".
If our OWN bankers are not coming up with the money, someone ELSE will...... !
Matt Wynn
Charter Member
Bill it's Solihull, 2 'L's about 13miles from where I live in the UK... still based in the uk, and i think they now have a site at the old RAF Gaydon, so now china has bombardier too eh? i know Stalins hard at work on his Series 3 i think (Land Rover FFR - Fitted For Radio), better inform those not so well versed in the world of landy that an FFR is a Forwards Command Radio Vehicle anyways lets hope things go well for all companies, i'd hate to see much more go to china but if its cheaper to manufacture they'll go there... I like my Beer British, My Rifles Belgian or German, my Food Greek, and my clocks Swiss... but i'll shut up before i get myself into trouble
anyways lets hope things go well for all companies, i'd hate to see much more go to china but if its cheaper to manufacture they'll go there... I like my Beer British, My Rifles Belgian or German, my Food Greek, and my clocks Swiss... but i'll shut up before i get myself into trouble
warchild
Charter Member
i dont want to be political here so please bear with me, but in regards to the state of america at the moment, financially speaking of course, There is incentive to not invest in the aircraft market. That incentive is many sided of course, but much of it boils down to two things as i reckon it. theres democrats in the white house! Thats gonna scare any corporation into scrambling to find tax shelters and other places to invest their moneys in order to hang onto as much of it as possible. Aircraft bwould and at one time was a good investment, but,
After world war two, anybody could buy a surplus aircraft for about 2000 dollars. that was about the price of a nice car ( like a caddy ), Then during the 60s for various reasons not part of this conversation, our economy went into a spiraling inflation that never really has slowed down. With higher costs the aircraft industries supportive infrastructure such as ATC and navigational equipment manufacturing began to deteriorate and crumble as no one, including the FAA mcould keep up with the rising costs to upgrade or replace it, especially with this "little" war in vietnam going on, and the governments need to invest in manpower and armaments to support it. The flagging state of equipment led to many airline crashes as did poorer manufacturing, and the public withdrew, especially after the Pan AM flight at Lockerbee (sp??). fewer people flying started the trend towards higher pricing on seating as companies have to maintain a projected income on their taxes, or pay a penalty at the end of the year. the OPEC hit. Fuel went from 2.27 a barrel to 50 dollars a barrel, and the oil companies learned a new scheme for making money, which directly effected every aircraft company, owner and would be buyer where it hurts the worst.
This is of course a simplification, and many small things were left out for brevity, but these examples and others have teamed together over the decades to bring the american aircraft industry to its knees and make airlines a losing game ( as was stated by the CEO of American Airlines on Television on the discovery channel ).
The average american earns over 15.00 dollars an hour, and expects health insurance, vacations, sick leave, maternity, you name it. the cost to the american corporations for this is staggering. An average pakistani earns 2.00 dollars a day, has nothing, expects nothing. of course american companies started sending their production overseas, turning america into a backwater would have been with nothing but hamburger flippers and car salesmen. Only defense, and defense related industries continue to show a profit here, but i cant speculate on that as i dont know squat about it.
one thing is for sure. two really. the aircraft industry is a luxury industry, especially in the GA sector. its going to go down before the rest of the country, and the rest of this country, is going down..
Please, these are just my opinions. they are mine only and not open for discussion. I welcome comment, but in this case, politics is a bit difficult to avoid..
Thamks
Pam
After world war two, anybody could buy a surplus aircraft for about 2000 dollars. that was about the price of a nice car ( like a caddy ), Then during the 60s for various reasons not part of this conversation, our economy went into a spiraling inflation that never really has slowed down. With higher costs the aircraft industries supportive infrastructure such as ATC and navigational equipment manufacturing began to deteriorate and crumble as no one, including the FAA mcould keep up with the rising costs to upgrade or replace it, especially with this "little" war in vietnam going on, and the governments need to invest in manpower and armaments to support it. The flagging state of equipment led to many airline crashes as did poorer manufacturing, and the public withdrew, especially after the Pan AM flight at Lockerbee (sp??). fewer people flying started the trend towards higher pricing on seating as companies have to maintain a projected income on their taxes, or pay a penalty at the end of the year. the OPEC hit. Fuel went from 2.27 a barrel to 50 dollars a barrel, and the oil companies learned a new scheme for making money, which directly effected every aircraft company, owner and would be buyer where it hurts the worst.
This is of course a simplification, and many small things were left out for brevity, but these examples and others have teamed together over the decades to bring the american aircraft industry to its knees and make airlines a losing game ( as was stated by the CEO of American Airlines on Television on the discovery channel ).
The average american earns over 15.00 dollars an hour, and expects health insurance, vacations, sick leave, maternity, you name it. the cost to the american corporations for this is staggering. An average pakistani earns 2.00 dollars a day, has nothing, expects nothing. of course american companies started sending their production overseas, turning america into a backwater would have been with nothing but hamburger flippers and car salesmen. Only defense, and defense related industries continue to show a profit here, but i cant speculate on that as i dont know squat about it.
one thing is for sure. two really. the aircraft industry is a luxury industry, especially in the GA sector. its going to go down before the rest of the country, and the rest of this country, is going down..
Please, these are just my opinions. they are mine only and not open for discussion. I welcome comment, but in this case, politics is a bit difficult to avoid..
Thamks
Pam
jmig
SOH-CM-2025
How's the luxury boat industry fairing? Is it suffering in the same way as the GA industry. Do these big yachts have problems reentering US coastal water these days?
warchild
Charter Member
I havent lived on a boat in nearly thirty years, and i'm afraid i could onlu make a poor guess as to the state of the yachting and boating industry. I know that Hans christian has cut back fifty percent on its production, eliminating 2 complete lines that used to be popular. The boating industry in general though is a hard one to track. there are so many applications and communities, and the international yachting community is one of the smallest and most elite communities in the world. most people who enjoy sailing can only dream of crewing out on one of those. i think the more accurate representation would be in asking how the fishing boat industry is doing. small, inexpensive workhorses of the weekend angler, they used to have one every few driveways in many cities. nowdays?/ i dont know.. i dont think so much..
warchild
Charter Member
This just in at airliners.net.. seems not everyone is impressed with the chinese, and there may be hope still for the hometown guys..
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Decision permits association of Epic owners to present case for buying assets, belaying AVIC purchase
Late yesterday afternoon, a Portland, Ore., judge gave an association of seven owners of Epic kit-built airplanes, several of which are locked up in the Epic facility in various stages of completion, another chance to present their case for purchasing the assets of bankrupt Epic Air. The assets of the Bend, Ore., plane maker were assumed to be sold to Chinese company, China Aviation Industry General Aircraft Co. Ltd. (AVIC) on Friday for $4.3 million by the bankruptcy judge. However, the airplane owners persevered and got yesterday’s hearing.
Epic filed for Chapter 11 reorganization in September 2009 and for Chapter 7 liquidation the following month.
After five hours of testimony before another judge Tuesday, Judge Randall Dunn ruled yesterday to give the bidders until this Friday to re-present their proposals, and perhaps establish new relationships among themselves. The Epic LT Owners Group has been dubbed the “Epic Seven” by the local press. The third bidder is Harlow Aerostructures of Wichita, Kan.
At the end, Epic customers were building their own carbon fiber, single-engine, pressurized turboprop Epic LTs under supervision of Epic technicians. They would come to Bend at intervals with the objective of flying their kit-built airplanes home, once completed. Customers paid at least $1 million up front.
It’s unclear why the Chinese want the kit plane maker, but Epic was renowned for its advanced composite materials expertise, which could explain their interest, and Harlow’s. The Epic Seven owners basically want to recoup their investment, and according to Daryl Ingalsbe, who said in court that his company, Independent Technologies Inc., is prepared to get Epic back in business, adding, “We’ll be in Bend. We’ll be a good employer.”
Under LT Owners Group ownership, Epic could even license its technology to AVIC, he said.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Decision permits association of Epic owners to present case for buying assets, belaying AVIC purchase
Late yesterday afternoon, a Portland, Ore., judge gave an association of seven owners of Epic kit-built airplanes, several of which are locked up in the Epic facility in various stages of completion, another chance to present their case for purchasing the assets of bankrupt Epic Air. The assets of the Bend, Ore., plane maker were assumed to be sold to Chinese company, China Aviation Industry General Aircraft Co. Ltd. (AVIC) on Friday for $4.3 million by the bankruptcy judge. However, the airplane owners persevered and got yesterday’s hearing.
Epic filed for Chapter 11 reorganization in September 2009 and for Chapter 7 liquidation the following month.
After five hours of testimony before another judge Tuesday, Judge Randall Dunn ruled yesterday to give the bidders until this Friday to re-present their proposals, and perhaps establish new relationships among themselves. The Epic LT Owners Group has been dubbed the “Epic Seven” by the local press. The third bidder is Harlow Aerostructures of Wichita, Kan.
At the end, Epic customers were building their own carbon fiber, single-engine, pressurized turboprop Epic LTs under supervision of Epic technicians. They would come to Bend at intervals with the objective of flying their kit-built airplanes home, once completed. Customers paid at least $1 million up front.
It’s unclear why the Chinese want the kit plane maker, but Epic was renowned for its advanced composite materials expertise, which could explain their interest, and Harlow’s. The Epic Seven owners basically want to recoup their investment, and according to Daryl Ingalsbe, who said in court that his company, Independent Technologies Inc., is prepared to get Epic back in business, adding, “We’ll be in Bend. We’ll be a good employer.”
Under LT Owners Group ownership, Epic could even license its technology to AVIC, he said.
Hey Pam,
This might be the same thing you found. I just found this from two days ago. I wonder what the verdict was, if the case was settled yesterday (Friday), or if they meant next Friday.
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/JudgeLeavesEpicAirFutureUnresolved_202258-1.html
They are going to hear other cases and then make the decision.
I kind of hope Harlow gets it. I do not think the '7' are up to the job. Who knows.... It would be neat to see a miracle happen and that company get back on its feet and become successful.
Bill
This might be the same thing you found. I just found this from two days ago. I wonder what the verdict was, if the case was settled yesterday (Friday), or if they meant next Friday.
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/JudgeLeavesEpicAirFutureUnresolved_202258-1.html
They are going to hear other cases and then make the decision.
I kind of hope Harlow gets it. I do not think the '7' are up to the job. Who knows.... It would be neat to see a miracle happen and that company get back on its feet and become successful.
Bill
cheezyflier
Charter Member
i can understand why you might hold this opinion. however, given the right circumstances the conditions you speak of are not as staggering as you believe. certainly. the huge bonuses and "golden parachutes" that are paid to executives play a part. especially when you consider they recieve them as a matter of contract, not as a reward for performance. there are trade, tax, environmental, and legal obstacles that also contribute to this problem. it's not surprising that the american worker wants to live better than the pakistani. so does most of the world. their economy tanked long before ours did, and in fact, we helped to bail them out of debt.
i don't deny that america's consumer based economy is bad news and will lead to it's ruin. however, during the time when america was a manufacturing giant for the rest of the world, our people were also educated better than (almost) anyone else's. we had better technology than (almost) everyone else. neither is the case now. i'm just saying that i think you are right about where things are headed, but i believe the road we are taking to get there, is not the one you believe it to be.
K
Ken Stallings
Guest
GA being a luxury market is simply a marketing decision, and one that I think is at the root of the current malais. In terms of application, general aviation is a practical method of personal and company transportation. Living in a fairly remote area of eastern New Mexico, I can certify just how valuable even a modest performing GA aircraft can be. Now, the OPEC cartel's effect on fuel prices is certainly a sizeable part of the airlines' problems as an industry, as well as to the personal costs of my own flying, and that cartel's model is a complete violation of nearly every national trade law against trusts and monopolies in the world, but they get away with it.
Ken
Ken