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This is very strange....

H

hawkeye52

Charter Member
I'm having elevator flutter with Rick Piper's Viscount 700 and 800. At first I thought it was caused by the airplane, but now I'm not so sure.

1. If I move the stick (even slightly touch it) in the longitudinal axis, the flutter appears, even on the ground with the engines stopped
2. If I keep my hand off the joy stick, there is no flutter
3. If I disable the joystick and maneuver via the keyboard, there is no flutter
4. However, the joystick works perfectly with every other airplane in my stable

Rick’s webpage lists both airplanes as FS2002 / FS2004 although the README refers only to FS2002.
I downloaded them yesterday. The files are dated July 2002 and the updates are dated August 2002.

I am using them in FS2004 / WinXP and use an MS Force Feedback 2 stick.

I downloaded these aircraft in 2006 and 2008 and had this same problem at that time. I revisited them yesterday hoping something had changed or that I had learned something in the intervening years. Apparently not. :icon_lol:


Has anyone a solution?

- H52
 
Try replacing the "[forcefeedback]" section in the aircraft.cfg with that of a similar aircraft.
 
Excellent suggestion, Mr. Shupe. I patched-in the section from Chris Buff's Electra II. Unfortunately, it had no effect. Thanks for the very logical idea!

- H52
 
You say you get the flutter on the ground as well. Am I correct that in that case the flutter is visual only. Meaning that the control surfaces move erratically but the aircraft itself is sitting still ??

Since Milton's suggestion did not work, what happens if ou remove all force feedback instructions from the cfg ?

If you have the registered version of FSUIPC you have the option to create an "aircraft specific" control calibration. Maybe that would help your particular problem. Even though as far as I remember that was not needed on my system to fly these birds.

Cheers
Stefan
 
"Am I correct that in that case the flutter is visual only. Meaning that the control surfaces move erratically but the aircraft itself is sitting still?" With the a/c sitting on the ground without movement, the elevators will flutter IF I TOUCH THE JOYSTICK (along the longitudinal axis). The same thing happens in flight, and at times the elevator locks in neutral and does not respond to joystick input.

That said, I rem'd (//) the FFB section and the problem is gone; totally normal operation. :jump:

It would still be nice to know the cause, dontcha thinK? :icon_lol: Thank you, Stefan.

- H52

Well......there is a wee bit more. I had previously reduced the elevator area to 67% of its original value. After flying w/o the FFB section and finding no flutter, I went back and restored the original elevator.... and I ran into high-speed flutter. So I again reduced the elevator area to 67% and, with the FFB section rem'd, got up to 452 KIAS at sea level with flutter setting in at approx. 400 KIAS, well above Vne.

-H52
 
My guess is that it is related to this part of the FF section:

(I would also check the air file table 1101 Stall Warning speed - Stick Shaker = parameter, and the cfg stall speeds to ensure they are not zero)
[h=2][forcefeedback] section[/h]As detailed in the tables below, the parameters in the [forcefeedback] section of an aircraft.cfg file define the forces generated by that aircraft in the user’s Force Feedback Joystick, so that different aircraft can have different force effects (a different "feel" in the stick).
[h=3]Stick shaker parameters[/h]These parameters define the simulated stick shaker force felt in the stick or yoke when flying an aircraft equipped with a stick shaker (such as the Learjet 45).

Parameter
Example (from Lear45 aircraft.cfg)
Data type
Range
stick_shaker_magnitude
stick_shaker_magnitude=5000
Integer
0–10000
stick_shaker_direction
stick_shaker_direction=0
Integer
0–35999 degrees
stick_shaker_period
stick_shaker_period=111111
Integer
0–2^32-1 microseconds
 
My guess...and that's all it is, is that there is something that interferes with the communication between the sim and the controller. The most likely culprit for something like that would be a gauge that simply blocks the data exchange.
I get that occasionally with certain aircraft. Not withe USB controls but with keyboard commands.
If you want to play detective I suggest trying a different panel.cfg if it goes away // the top half of the gauge lines in the original panel.cfg and then try again with the original FFB in the aircraft.cfg
If it still happens re-activate those lines and // the bottom half.
Once you know which half does it, repeat the process of elimination again only for half of that half and so on. Until you narrow it down to one gauge.

Or .... If you don't need FFB or don't have a stick with FFB leave it as is and go flying.

Cheers
Stefan
 
Also check to ensure that AP or Alt Hold is not on by chance by default.

And, do you have a "Null Zone" defined for the controller?

EDIT: You might also check tehair file table 1101 looking at Propwash factor to ensure it is zero.

Also, do you have a table 1525, Pitch trim moment, dynamic pressure? Might help to reduce the value, or add the table.

You may be on to something with your sqft area test. The elevator just may be overly sensitive. You could also try reducing elevator sensitivity in the Flight Tuning section.
 
I'm working on your suggestions, fellas. This ain't over yet, 'cause when I came in to land, the elevator acted up again --- at 152 KIAS.

- H52
 
I replaced the recommended panel (the one I'd been using) with the panel from the default King Air. So far no high or low-speed flutter, even with the full-size elevator. I'll work on this mañana (appropriate, considering the date) but for now it's nite-nite time on the east coast. :sleep:

- H52
 
Having very little knowledge of the intricacies of AIR FILES and not wanting to change too many parts of the AIRCRAFT CFG, it seemed like Stefan’s suggestion for detective work on the PANEL CFG was the safest. Before proceeding with all the “remming“, I scanned the list of 94 gauges in [Window00] and spied one I had never before seen: “Gust_Lock”. Hmmm, in real life that is associated with control surfaces….

By now you’ve guessed the rest. I rem’d that puppy and, with an intact FFB section and a full-size elevator, the onset of flutter is 100 KIAS above Vne .

Thank you, gents, for making me smarter. By the way, Stefan, if you have a hunch (guess) about winning lottery numbers, BUY THE TICKET! :running:


- H52
 
I am on it....maybe then I can finally buy myself a real Lockheed Constellation.

Ok now that you have narrowed things down to that one gauge, you should be able to go through the panel within FS and see where Rick has hidden that control lock.
Knowing that he likes to make things as real as they get I am sure there is a knob, button or switch somewhere that simply needs to be placed into the flight position to prevent this problem in the first place.

Cheers
Stefan
 
Yes, all this effort could have been avoided if I had taken the time to READ the EXTENSIVE PANEL DOCUMENTATION. My excuse is that I have so little time to ACTUALLY FLY in FS that I mostly "kick the tires and light the fires".

Hell, it works fine 99% of the time! :icon_lol:

- H52
 
I usually do the same thing, with one exception. I have a notepad handy and make notes on what works or what doesn't. Including how the aircraft performs in various flight regimes.
Once I am done with the first veal flights I then study the manual, if one is provided to find answers to questions that have come up on the first outing.

Of course that scond step oly applies to those aircraft that have made it past the waste basket.

While it seems we wasted a bit of time here, fixing something that did or need fixing. In the end you may have learned a new trick or two. And got a reminder that sometimes **** is beneficial after all ;)

Cheers
Stefan
 
After I found the gust-lock control – by reading (ok, “skimming”) the panel manual, I un-rem’d the previously rem’d “Gust_Lock gauge and wonder-of-wonders, the control appeared at the lower right edge of the panel. Went for a flight to Nassau and back to PBI with no flutter at all, except for the F/A’s eyelashes.

Interestingly, I do the same thing as you; I have 10 notebooks (750 pages) dating back to July 2004. Thanks for your help and for commiserating with me.

– H52
 
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