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To David Brice & Iris Team Members

D

deathfromafar

Charter Member
David, I just wanted to post this in light of the previous closed F-14 thread and all that was said there and pass my words of praise to your efforts. I was one of your original F-14A FS9 buyers who bought that model the day it came out and to this very moment, I do not regret that purchase whatsoever. I still fly her a lot and I consider that model to be a benchmark for much of what we now see in certain FS standards. We all know developers work hard for this hobby of ours being payware or freeware makers. Some folks appreciate the finer points of the work and some may not or may count rivets to eye popping ends. I have not purchased the new F-14 yet but I have about 20 hours behind it through a friend who did buy it. I was impressed with the added complexity of this model over the old one in terms of cockpit resource management and general depth of perceived realism. Seems damn good to me. Flight model wise, I found it to be not unlike the original effort, maybe more depth on the envelope. I know some old Tomcat drivers and they indicated to me that the real plane's flight invelope can't not possibly be 100% replicated in a computer sim but that substantial parts of it can be. it is afterall an artificial feel in a computer system. How real is real? How real can it get? How real does one expect it to be from a computer? The answer can vary person tp person on expectations. No bashing here, just observation. Then again, I can go through my old flight training school's Cessna fleet and tell you which ones I like over ones I do not like to fly. I can tell differences in all of them in the way they fly.

I am going to buy this FSX Tomcat soon. I was impressed with it as I was the original. Will be money well spent. I for one greatly appreciate your efforts David as well as other folks who bust their backsides doing this.

:amen:
 
Interesting point Death. I did a flying scholarship many many years ago and flew Cherokees. Even as complete novice pilots, we soon learned to pick and choose the planes we flew as dispite them all being the same, they all had their own little characteristics (one was nearing its overhaul and the power was terrible, lower cimb rates and longer take offs, so we aoided that if possible) and the same goes with cars too.

I need to get that Vulcan :ernae:
 
Aircraft Individualism

Speaking with 26 years in the maintenance side of the house I can say every fleet has it's dogs, hanger queens, and bent ones. Especially so as the fleets age of course.
One thing that really affects power from turbines is blade wear and and tip clearances, as they get older you get all kinds of problems with throttle stagger on multi-engines and low epr for given throttle settings,etc.
Then you have the bent ones that you have do alternate flap rigging and trim settings to get to fly 'straight' like one of Air Canada's DC-9s. And don't ever look at the scab patches on an old 737-200, you may not want to fly on that one. Both those situations change the aircraft's flying qualities.
I guess what I'm saying is there is no one way an aircraft should feel or seem. They are just as individualistic as people and as such there is no perfect model of it's handling or performance possible.
Just some musings from under no.1 engine cowl.:gossip:

Regards, Rob:ernae:
 
real can get pretty real. I beg to offer that some .air files REALLY hit the nail on the head. I have a DC-10 captain friend who swears that the CLS DC-10 is perfect. The aerosoft F-16 REALLY nails it, and I'm not the only person who thinks so. The Carenado warrior? I can't tell the difference once I have my stick set right. I've flown many different types of aircraft in real life. It is very possible to nail it in flight sim, and it's also possible for the .AIR to just feel fake-like the one in the F-14 that accelerates smoothly to 1100KIAS at 100AGL. In addition, some developers do NOT understand that matching what the tech data and manuals say in numbers does nothing for feel and many other aspects of how an aircraft flies. Further, I've heard many authors of .AIR files claim that their ill-working .AIR files were the result of real world pilots of that specific airframe giving approval and praise. You know what I think? I think a lot of people lie about their real world aviation experience.

I commend IRIS's tremendously positive attitude, but I've never flown an IRIS product with a good flight model. I really hate to say it, because I like and respect these guys, but it's true.
 
I guess beating a dead horse never gets old. Trying to sooth raw nerves here with this thread was obviously pointless. I have had my pilots license since the early 90s, added my Instrument, Multi, Commercial, CFI,CFII, MEI & six money wasted hours in a R22. To this day I have not flown one FS aircraft that "perfectly" replicated a real plane I have flown in any aspect of the flight model and feel. Maybe they come close in some respects but that is it. It boils down to the enherent limitations imposed by a PC. You mention the Aerosoft F-16 being dead on? Really? I know a retired Major General who has flown the Viper since 1980 who was also a former Fighter Weapons Instructor and he gave the Aerosoft F-16 as well as some stand alone(non-FS) Viper's a run. He claimed while these simulations were decent representations of the real Viper, not one flew exactly like the real plane verbatim.

Point being that why beat the developers over the head with things that are nitpicking at best, things that maybe aren't perfect or obtainable in a computer based flight sim. If you don't like the product then don't buy for crying out loud. Nuff said.
 
Nothing wrong with telling what you like and don't like about a product. I bought the Tomcat for FS9 and really enjoyed that one. However I don't see a lot of visual improvement on the new one. That's one area where it would be nice if IRIS could step up a bit and improve. That's one of the areas where I don't see any improvement. It's sticking in the modelkit area look. I don't mean it has to be photoreal, it just have to make that click in your head that makes you feel it's a real plane you look at and not a model.

Examples of that are for example the Icarus Gladiator, latest AlphaSim products, RealAir spitfire and the A2A stuff. For me the way it looks is extremely important. If I want a 100% accurate flying experience I'll have to get in the real deal. ;)
 
deathfromafar said:
I guess beating a dead horse never gets old. Trying to sooth raw nerves here with this thread was obviously pointless. I have had my pilots license since the early 90s, added my Instrument, Multi, Commercial, CFI,CFII, MEI & six money wasted hours in a R22. To this day I have not flown one FS aircraft that "perfectly" replicated a real plane I have flown in any aspect of the flight model and feel. Maybe they come close in some respects but that is it. It boils down to the enherent limitations imposed by a PC. You mention the Aerosoft F-16 being dead on? Really? I know a retired Major General who has flown the Viper since 1980 who was also a former Fighter Weapons Instructor and he gave the Aerosoft F-16 as well as some stand alone(non-FS) Viper's a run. He claimed while these simulations were decent representations of the real Viper, not one flew exactly like the real plane verbatim.

Point being that why beat the developers over the head with things that are nitpicking at best, things that maybe aren't perfect or obtainable in a computer based flight sim. If you don't like the product then don't buy for crying out loud. Nuff said.
Click to expand...


Good sir, I admire your intentions; please don't get me wrong. BUT: there comes a point where we all need to quit with the rave reviews sometimes and be realistic so that others don't spend 50 dollars on something they don't like. We've all done it. I've read 'foaming at the mouth' hapy reviews on products that I immediately went out and bought, and wished I hadn't.

As for the flight models: Like even you've said, much of that is up to interpretation, right? For example: the Aerosoft F-16 may have odd post-stall characteristics (acceptable, they don't hammerhead F-16s in real life) and the IRIS F-14 may accelerate like a scalded cat to 1100KIAS on the deck (unacceptable...).

I don't want to beat a dead horse, I really don't. They are great guys, but your soothing of raw nerves shouldn't include telling people that for 50 dollars the flight model was close enough. If it was free, then you'd be right. The flight model is ALWAYS close enough when it's free.
 
deathfromafar said:
I
If you don't like the product then don't buy for crying out loud. Nuff said.
Click to expand...

Thats difficult - I never buy a product hoping not to like it! You have to buy to know.

The issue here is simple - once developers get your money you can't do anything else if you dont like it other than make some noise.
 
deathfromafar said:
If you don't like the product then don't buy for crying out loud. Nuff said.
Click to expand...

Usually, if one's flown it, they've bought it. Every great once in a while, you'll have a buddy that's purchased it and you can go try it out.

You can't unbuy most MSFS products. Eaglesoft and Abacus are the only ones I know that will let you see if you like a product. Eaglesoft allows returns, and Abacus allows trials.

You're completely missing the point though. This has nothing to do with whether I'll buy a product or not. I want others to be able to make an informed decision, even if my negative comments led them to a purchase.
 
tigisfat said:
Usually, if one's flown it, they've bought it. Every great once in a while, you'll have a buddy that's purchased it and you can go try it out.

You can't unbuy most MSFS products. Eaglesoft and Abacus are the only ones I know that will let you see if you like a product. Eaglesoft allows returns, and Abacus allows trials.

You're completely missing the point though. This has nothing to do with whether I'll buy a product or not. I want others to be able to make an informed decision, even if my negative comments led them to a purchase.
Click to expand...


Very well put. I regard these SOH forums as a useful watchdog and that is why so many developers spend time here as they know they cannot shut people up who don't like something - like some do when policing their own forums. Fortunately the good ones will answer any comments. I respect them for their support and determination.:applause:
 
I have bought several addons of past and the ones that I just thought did not fit my system were returned no questions asked..

I would suggest research on who will allow this to be done and avoid the rest ...Even if they offer what you want but allow no returns...Then buy at your own risk...

And we are doing this again WHY?

This is Sim OutHouse..... Not Sim Reviews....


Deathfromafar.. Point well taken..Thank You.....
 
harleyman said:
I have bought several addons of past and the ones that I just thought did not fit my system were returned no questions asked..

I would suggest research on who will allow this to be done and avoid the rest ...Even if they offer what you want but allow no returns...Then buy at your own risk...

And we are doing this again WHY?

This is Sim OutHouse..... Not Sim Reviews....


Deathfromafar.. Point well taken..Thank You.....
Click to expand...

Right Amigo!!!!......some Payware stuff gets great "advertisement" by the makers but it really is not worth the money paid......most should follow Abacuspub which lets you test the product before you pay.....most don´t do that because they are not willing to take the chance....they know their product is really "not that hot"!!!!!!.....with dire times and hard to get money maybe we will see more do this...I usually have bought those that I tried first, its is a sound policy if you have a good product......
 
Flight1 has a 30-day refund policy, and that covers a whole lot of nice add-ons. Given that, it seems to me that there are a ton of great products you can try first to see if they're a fit for you.

I don't think the lack of demo products is indicative of a lack of confidence on the part of publishers. For aircraft, it's non-trivial to create a version that's time-limited (but can't be hacked) or feature-limited but still gives a fair impression of the purchased product. For scenery, it's even harder. I'd rather just distribute through a venue that allows refunds and let the full product be the thing that speaks for itself.
 
(shooting my own argument in the foot here)

How much do you guys think creating a hack proof time-limited product adds into overall development costs?
 
tigisfat said:
You can't unbuy most MSFS products. Eaglesoft and Abacus are the only ones I know that will let you see if you like a product. Eaglesoft allows returns, and Abacus allows trials.
Click to expand...


All of the products at Flight1 you can try and return if you do not like them. Besides selling their own add-ons, Flight1 also sells Carenado and a bunch of other products from other developers.

*EDIT* Of course, this has already been mentioned. lol
 
Just wondering why this thread is a repeat of the other thread... why can't we just let it be?
Why, if the previous thread got closed over this circular arguing, do we need to rehash it all again?
What makes the haters hate so loud?
What makes the fanboys cheer so loud?
I dunno...
But the Bhudda advocated a middle path, and there, perhaps the truth lies...

Note: I do not intend to offend any person in my comments - this is more of a retorical post than anything else, and I have often felt like posting nearly these identical words in other contexts
 
Look guys, This will be my last post in this thread so that peace might prevail. May it continue on without me. If the topic changes by a lot, then I may come back.

This is pointed at no specific developer or consumer. As the prices of payware MSFS addons climb, this is no longer a friendly mom and pop industry. 50 dollars is a serious piece of software, in my opinion. Everything to be expected of a microsoft or apple product for 50 dollars can and should be expected from a 50 MSFS addon. That's not a bad thing either. We have some great addons these days.

We still treat this like a flea market, though. There is a lot of false advertising going around, and buddies of sellers coming into conversations to vouch for them as if they were just another consumer who liked the product. This is dangerous to me. When I get ripped off (which happens about a third of the time) I'm hesitant to buy again. When I say the term 'ripped off', I don't always mean that the product was trash, I mean to say that I didn't get what I expected. We know how fast this hobby moves, but I've been blatently lied to about features and realism so many times on this and other forums it's not funny. If a developer comes on here and promises the ultimate in realism with this or that feature, the feature had better work and the 'realism' factor doesn't have to be off the chart, but it should be cutting edge for the times. I'm not demanding this of developers, but I am suggesting that we never forget how to honorably do business as developers or consumers.

If you've bought more than 10-20 addons, you start wondering who you can really buy from again and who's opinion to trust. it's about 50/50 for me. I'll never buy from half the developers again, and the other half.....while.....I'm a fanboy. I just try not to be to loud about it. There's so much of that going around at times you don't really know which products are good. One thing is true; they aren't all 'the best release ever'.
 
To me it just seems rather then give a true review of a product and point out the pros and con's, we get a person writing the review being filled with anger.

I happen to like their products enough where I understand I get what I pay for. I have never flown a F-14 Tomcat in real life, been around them growing up my uncle was a engineer at the Grumman plant out here on Long Island NY, but when I had seen all the detail that went into the cockpit and its functions that sold me on it.
 
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