well

messy

what a mess.........as for donations....think of 'em as donations for all the years past when SOH carried and made all the add-on's work....and all the stuff that's still bound to come along, not OFF I guess, but your money's not been wasted by any accounting.......and this ain't the end of the world....just two sites to check out instead of one. Still, it's too bad.....I feel there's a rift in the family that'll never heal. Dang!
 
Not to Hi-jack threads...

But...

OvS, no offence mate, but I suspect I can guess why they didn't take you up on your offer. I could be entirely wrong, but you do very much come across as somebody who would have too much ego invested in your actions as a moderator. More moderation for the sake of displaying your AUTHORITAH than actually maintaining good order and discipline. People like to have a bit of a ruck on occasion, but so long as it doesn't get to the point of outright naked abuse they should be given their head. I suspect you'd be straight in with the SimHQ-style condescending superiority, followed by suspensions and bannings if anyone dared to question your AUTHORITAH! Forums don't need that kind of posturing, and it's why SimHQ is mostly populated by obsequious eunuchs these days. That sense that there is ALWAYS somebody looking over your shoulder as you type, just waiting for an excuse, ANY excuse, to shout "GOD is here! Fear my AUTHORITAH! WHAT are you saying?! Run it by me first, and pay due homage, for I am the final arbiter of your thoughts and only with my good grace may you express them." :icon_lol:

But that's just my opinion, an observation. I don't know you, so it can't be personal and please don't take it as such. :)

You must have me confused with someone else. That's definately not me.

But thanks,

OvS
 
It's a shame, but that's the way it is.
I have been of the opinion that OFF should have it's own forum, on it's own site for a fair while now, and am looking forward to it getting up and running.

I know I did jump off the deep end with the mods reaction,but as Siggi said..we are all human's.

It's been a lot of fun here, and I will miss it when it closes down (the Mods have done a good enough job on moderating for the most part) but I will enjoy a fresh new forum.
 
Not to Hi-jack threads...

But...



You must have me confused with someone else. That's definately not me.

But thanks,

OvS

I'm reminded of the old adage:

"Those who seek power are least fit to hold it."

I had numerous people ask me to be given mod status on my various forums, and not one of them was ever given it. Most of them nice chaps, and often with the best of intentions. But as soon as they asked they were ruled out. All my mods were approached by me and asked if they'd mind taking the job. Weighed, measured and found desirable from the mettle of their posts and demeanour therein.

You're a nice chap OvS, please don't misunderstand me on that. I'd just never want to see you in a police uniform. You are far too judgemental and subjective. A good moderator has to be entirely dispassionate and objective and with a good instinct for human behaviour and motivation and able to finely judge cause & effect. And be able to express reason instead of dictating sentence.
 
I'm reminded of the old adage:

"Those who seek power are least fit to hold it."

I had numerous people ask me to be given mod status on my various forums, and not one of them was ever given it. Most of them nice chaps, and often with the best of intentions. But as soon as they asked they were ruled out. All my mods were approached by me and asked if they'd mind taking the job. Weighed, measured and found desirable from the mettle of their posts and demeanour therein.

---language edited---
Yes Widowmaker, that's part of what I meant when I posted earlier that all posts need to be checked.
 
I'm reminded of the old adage:

"Those who seek power are least fit to hold it."

I had numerous people ask me to be given mod status on my various forums, and not one of them was ever given it. Most of them nice chaps, and often with the best of intentions. But as soon as they asked they were ruled out. All my mods were approached by me and asked if they'd mind taking the job. Weighed, measured and found desirable from the mettle of their posts and demeanour therein.

You're a nice chap OvS, please don't misunderstand me on that. I'd just never want to see you in a police uniform. You are far too judgemental and subjective. A good moderator has to be entirely dispassionate and objective and with a good instinct for human behaviour and motivation and able to finely judge cause & effect. And be able to express reason instead of dictating sentence.

Been there, done that. I ran my own Forum in support of my array of Hell's Angels mods for well over 3 years with no issues. Occasionally there was, but PM's sent, and rules enforced, all parties were happy.

We had many subjects, and many opinions, and many debates. It was a good forum, but I kept it relative to WWI and HASP.

Let's debate my personality on the new forum, not here.

Thanks,

OvS
 
It comes down to one's basic principles, the belief in free speech or the belief that all expression should be subject to somebody else's control.

On my forums nobody was ever banned or suspended, so long as their posts were genuine (eg, accounts were terminated only in the case of commercial spam, racism, porn or similar kinds of obvious nonsense). But the usual point was raised, that arguments, when they became too heated (flame-wars), disfigured the environment for everyone else.
So I created a special forum each time I put up a site, where overtly abusive posts were quarantined as it were. Members were free to go into it, indulge in whatever way (reading, responding, whatever) while those who wanted no part in it had no need to see any of the unpleasantness.

I had people who ferociously abused me on occasion, they weren't banned or suspended, their posts were put into the quarantine. Sometimes I'd respond, most often I'd ignore them. They were free to continue posting normally in the other forums, no matter what they said or felt about me. I took great pride in that approach.

Human beings have a fundamental right to fall out, become passionately angry towards others, for whatever reason, and express those feelings. Suppressing them, for whatever goodly-intentioned reasons, is both unjustifiably oppressive and dangerous.

That's my principle, in a nutshell. And I hold in the greatest suspicion anyone who seeks control over the expressions of others.
 
Let's debate my personality on the new forum, not here.

Thanks,

OvS

I think not. You'd ban me.

And it's not your personality, it's your attitude. You seek a large measure of control over the expressions of others, with yourself as judge, jury and executioner. I have no time for that kind of rot.
 
Been there, done that. I ran my own Forum in support of my array of Hell's Angels mods for well over 3 years with no issues. Occasionally there was, but PM's sent, and rules enforced, all parties were happy.

We had many subjects, and many opinions, and many debates. It was a good forum, but I kept it relative to WWI and HASP.

I remember it well. Great forum. You did a nice job with it.
 
Well done OVS,

Concerning your message to the SOH Forums, I couldnt have put it better myself :applause::applause::applause:

Regarding Siggi's opinions:- IF you agree to abide by the rules of the forum, why would you be banned?? If you step outside of those rules & continue to do so after warnings, then you deserve to be!

Personality has nothing to do with it.

Legion.
 
it seems we are getting a little personal here!
only to prove our point
OVS we did consider you as a mod
but with the constant trouble in the Off forums
we thought it better to have a non hands on mod
actually its 75% admins that monitor this forum
we do not do that with any other forum
H
 
No problem Henry. That was the same reason Winder gave me as well. Nothing to do with personalities or anything else. It was to do with common interests.

Middle did a top notch job for us. I will miss him as well as yourself... and that damn avatar!!! I love the expression on his face. ;)

Believe me, I don't take it personal... but you have to agree, this kinda hurts.

All the best,

OvS
 
it seems we are getting a little personal here!
only to prove our point

H

You got my $20 for 2 months use of SOH/OFF 3 - both of which I'd never heard of prior - and after you said you were shutting the forum down I deservedly asked about a refund in a PM. What I got from you was "bye bye, thats the way it is"

That's personal.
 
You got my $20 for 2 months use of SOH/OFF 3 - both of which I'd never heard of prior - and after you said you were shutting the forum down I deserved asked about a refund in a PM. What I got from you was "bye bye, thats the way it is"

That's personal.
that was in a private message
its only against the rules in public
in which you just broke,
I did not Make you donate
and i am not in charge of donations
i am getting more tired of this aggravation
you are only making it sooner than later
H
 
Over50,

Look, I'm not defending SOH's actions, but what you paid for is use of SOH, not OFF's forum. And it's voluntary. I agree with you, a reply like that would have sent me through the roof as well, but their fund drive was to support them, not us.

Hence our decision to press on. Hopefully, we can change that feeling you have now to a good time on the new forum we are looking in to.

OvS
 
that was in a private message
its only against the rules in public
in which you just broke,
I did not Make you donate
and i am not in charge of donations
i am getting more tired of this aggravation
you are only making it sooner than later
H

Now who's getting personal..
 
Over50,

Look, I'm not defending SOH's actions, but what you paid for is use of SOH, not OFF's forum. And it's voluntary. I agree with you, a reply like that would have sent me through the roof as well, but their fund drive was to support them, not us.

Hence our decision to press on. Hopefully, we can change that feeling you have now to a good time on the new forum we are looking in to.

OvS

After nearly 70 years of living and better than 20 years in a management position when I had to earn a living let's just say what has occurred here is not a new experience. I've had to deal with all types and this is just more of the same.

The $20 isn't the issue so much as it is the manner in which I was unceremoniously told to take a hike when I civily inquired about a refund in a PM - which I did out of courtesy vs a post in the forum. And now I'm being chastised for going public with the stuff-it reply I got.

As to what has evolved interms of response from both parties since the intial declaration to shut down the OFF forum, clearly the OFF dev's/team have demonstrated a clear measure of civility and graciousness unlike most of the SOH respondents.
 
Guys,

The OFF group has crossed over to the dark side, payware – it’s a whole new ballgame.

OFF has been on these forums for a long time. So no matter how you look at it, SOH and crew have given a lot of volunteer work (they represent the truest flight simmers). WH seems like good guy and SOH is one of the very best run flight simulation forums.

As a member of SOH, it is not right to ask for money back from a volunteer force that has served for so long. It’s time to shake hands and wish each other well. We’re all in the same family, and chances are your paths will cross again.

Scott.
 
Well done OVS,

Concerning your message to the SOH Forums, I couldnt have put it better myself :applause::applause::applause:

Regarding Siggi's opinions:- IF you agree to abide by the rules of the forum, why would you be banned?? If you step outside of those rules & continue to do so after warnings, then you deserve to be!

Personality has nothing to do with it.

Legion.

Unfortunately it rarely pans out that way. I've been banned from more forums than I can remember, not for breaking any rules but for fighting my corner too well against a fellow member, mod or admin. Ego will have it's way, and where another member will be driven to abuse, a mod or admin will invariably be driven to bringing out the ban-stick.

That's one of the reasons I had the policy described above on my forums. Nobody feared having an opinion, and being able to express it in a forthright and honest manner. And if things did get heated they didn't need to fear being spoken down to by a staffer, and/or banned. Because no staffer had that power, which also weeded out a lot of people who would otherwise have been unsuitable for the job. How many people would be mods if they knew up front their traditional powers would be non-existent? About 5% of them. The only power they had was to intervene with reason, and move a post/s to the quarantine forum. It worked, perfectly, on every forum I ran.

I won't engage with mods or admins in debate anymore, about anything. 95% of them are incapable of having an open and forthright debate on equal terms, I've learnt that the hard way. It's like trying to argue with a police officer, doesn't matter how right you know you are, best response is always to patronize them, tell them whatever it is they want to hear (placate their ego) and move on. The alternative is to be banned (or arrested), and then have the evidence falsified usually. Had plenty of that at SimHQ in the past, posts edited and accusations and abuse given after I was no longer able to defend myself. Classic techniques from those who have had their abusive behaviour exposed publically, lost the argument completely and felt compelled to win by any other means available, no matter how underhand.

The results are usually clear to see, what I term the "buddy back-slapping, communal **********" phenomena of group-think forum membership mentality, where all debate follows an approved formula, and anyone who expresses any opinion outside of the box is set about by the established clique with the full connivance of the staff. SimHQ to a T. More of a knitting circle than a community, with the majority of posts so overwhelmingly dull one can hear the paint crack as they warp. With a queue of mods just hopping behind the curtains, looking for any excuse to jump in and show everyone their 'privilaged' status. And that's another phenomena in it's own right, those who feel so inadequate in their real lives that they are led to invest so much of their self-regard in an illusory internet status. There's a distinct ego hierarchy going on there, and being a mod on a reasonably well-known forum is close to nirvana for many. Take a close look at the visible tells...special signatures, that advertize their sense of special status, special avatars with special custom titles, exclusive coloured fonts...it's a hoot for anyone who sees it for what it is.

The SimHQ staff...bless 'em. :icon_lol:

Anyway, hope that's given you some insights, or at least entertained you. :)
 
Over50,
If you have a problem with your donation to SOH, take it up with "the money man". That'll be the site owner, Ickie.
A donation to SOH is to keep the site up and running. A donation to the OFF crew is to help keep them guys up and running. These are two separate ventures.

As for the little spat between yourself and Henry that has spilled over from PMs into the forum...
What is posted here so far is not a personal attack. Let's keep it that way. I don't care what transpires between members via PMs...those are PERSONAL MESSAGES to be dealt with amongst the parties involved. Posts in the forum are PUBLIC.
This is just further proving the point of the constant staff/admin attention that is required because of a select few individuals. You are not making things any easier on your membership here with your actions.
 
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