What can you really see?

KellyB said:
Bone: Have you any shots looking "view forward"? I'm always interested in what a pilot should see in these planes. For example, the default DC3 has a view that is not accurate, according to those who would know.

Thanks.
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I didn't take any shots looking forward through the windscreen of the F-105, but you are correct about the view problem with some of the models. As an example, I have a significant amount of time in the CRJ-200/700/900 series...the majority being in the 700/900...and I can tell you for an absolute fact that the view you have looking forward in the default CRJ is totally wrong. The view is just one a many many things wrong with that model, it needs a total rework.

I have almost 13,000 hours in the left seat of the real one, just in case someone thinks I'm wrong about this.
 
fsafranek said:
Oh, also, the canopy of the Thud had a lot of framing. For that image above to be of any value in an argument for or against the need to see a wing it should be closed or a piece of cardboard held in place for the photo so you could see what the pilot truly saw, which isn't what you see in that view.
:ernae:
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I did mention this in my initial comments, and I looked at the canopy with this in mind. The frame isn't quite as hefty, or as obstructive with the view as you might think. Consider this, with the canopy down, the bottom portion of the frame is a good bit below the pilots eyepoint...ie you are looking out over the top of the lower frame. When you rotate your eye movement downward and look at the frame, it is akin to looking at the top edge of the knife blade, not the flat side of the knife blade.

In case I just confused anyone, try this: While keeping your fingers straight, hold the palm of your hand over your eyes. You can't see anything. Now, rotate your hand to where the top edge is just over your eye. You can see a lot more. People make the mistake of looking at a canopy with wide framing, and thinking that frame blocks a significant amount of the view. Really, you're just looking at the top edge of the frame.

I remember when Phil told everyone on the Alphasim forums that Cliff Presley said you couldn't see any of the wings from the cockpit. At the time there were two ex F-105 pilots living on the same street as my parents in Ft Worth, Texas. They both flew the Thuds on active duty, and also with the 301st TFW (reserve) at Carswell AFB. I asked them both if you could see the wings when flying, and they said you can. I had gotten to sit in the F-105 back in 1982, but not with the canopy down. I honestly don't think Mr Presley said you can't see the wings. I think Phil told us that to get us to shut up about it. I know it's a dead horse, but there are so many people who have grasped onto that little piece of BS information, and they still defend it to this day. It's a total farce, especially for people who demand realism. Really, I'm not trying to be an arse, I just am trying to help with some of the perception you find around here.
;)
 
Stickshaker said:
It would seem to me that if you are strapped in and have a bulky helmet (limiting lateral head movement) you can see a lot less than when you’re sitting in the cockpit in your T-shirt. And in real life it probably would be so uncomfortable to turn to see the wings that you wouldn’t do it anyway. But if developers can give us wings; why not, although I would not consider this point for a second when deciding whether nor not to buy a plane. As for real-life, I’m sure Cliff is right. He should know.
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When flying, you always have to be looking around. Fighter pilots not only look around constantly, but they're like a Cirque Du Soleil performance when they fly. On Youtube, you can spend hours watching cockpit videos of fighter pilots twisting and turning in all manner of directions while pulling some hefty G-loads. There's even F-15 backseat video showing the pilot in the front seat twisting like a snake around both sides of the seat, almost completely turned around at numerous points of the vids.

I see you're one of the ones that cling to what Cliff supposedly said. I'm betting Cliff never said that.










 
I hope Cliff or another F-105 pilot reads this thread and clears things up. I cannot be sure what Cliff said, so hopefully he's still around here. Whatever his answer is, it's good enough for me.
 
Whoever the Dev in question is, I wouldn't be in the least surprised if he/she mutters "What I have modeled, I have modeled" and battens down all hatches. There comes a time when a complete rework is a very unattractive option.

Just my tuppence ha'penny.
 
Stickshaker said:
I hope Cliff or another F-105 pilot reads this thread and clears things up. I cannot be sure what Cliff said, so hopefully he's still around here. Whatever his answer is, it's good enough for me.
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It might just be easier for you to keep the belief that you can't see any part of the wings from the cockpit, and that the helmet is so bulky that a pilot just wouldn't bother turning his head either way, because it would be too uncomfortable.
 
I don't actually want to bother with the real discussion topic because it doesn't interest me all that much at the moment. What I really want to know is how/ where did you get to sit in an F-105? I do well if the museums I've been to let you sit in a Cessna.
 
Of course, with FSX the interior and exterior models are separate.

You could edit the model.cfg so that the interior references the exterior model, load the plane into FSX, move your eyepoint so it is where the pilot's head is and then have a look around yourself. If you can see the wings in this position then you can ask the question as to why the developer left out the wings in the interior model.

Personally, when developing a plane I work with the exterior model (which includes the full cockpit rather than a cutdown version of one) and then when that is done I convert a copy to the interior model, deleting any parts/polygons not visible in the pilots position.
 
The planes I fly, various 747 models, I really can't see the wings! Only if I move my head all the way against the side glass can I see the winglet on a 747-400. The Dash eight 47 one in a similar position can barely see the tip. The Dreamlifter.... no.

Interesting to see by moving one's head position about inside and even outside the cockpit how much of the exterior is actually visible (modeled) from the VC. Pollys, it's about pollys and frame rates.

T
 
fliger747 said:
The planes I fly, various 747 models, I really can't see the wings! Only if I move my head all the way against the side glass can I see the winglet on a 747-400. The Dash eight 47 one in a similar position can barely see the tip. The Dreamlifter.... no.


T
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Same with the plane I fly. I can see the winglet and the last 3 feet of the wing if I put my face up to the side window. Just sitting in the seat and rotating my head, I can't see any of it. I'm pretty sure you understand where I coming from here, Tom. Cheers.

EDIT: Just in case there's someone who might wonder why you would put your face up to the side window. When taxxing, I do regularly have to put my face up to the side window to make sure the wing tip clears an obstacle. The ramp areas in the airline world are jam packed full of ground equipemt, and even though we have marshallers to guide us into the gate, it is akin to threading the needle, and there are sketchy moments when a marshaller is waving us in and it is prudent to take a look for yourself. I've stopped many times when it was clear the marshaller was making a misjudgement.
 
In the Whale that wingtip must be about 150 ft away, the ability to accurately judge the distance to an object accurately is restricted. A few times errors have been by folks made and wing walkers do not seem to be as reliable as they might. We had one of our guys, a check airman with a new IOE student clip the tail of an RJ which wasn't all the way into the gate, on the students side.....

Cheers: T
 
If Airbus can stick a little camera in the tailfin of their A380,surely sticking cameras in the winglets of any airliner couldn't be that difficult? :)
 
fliger747 said:
We had one of our guys, a check airman with a new IOE student clip the tail of an RJ which wasn't all the way into the gate, on the students side.....

Cheers: T
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Look closely, and you can see a B-767 winglet stuck in the hacked up tail of an RJ. I know both of the guys this happened to, and I flew with the FO not long after the incident. He regaled me with the story of what it's like to get smacked in the butt by a heavy, and the cascading list of failures that showed up on the CAS. I've flown this plane many times since it got repaired, and she fly's pretty much the same as before the incident. I was kind of expecting her to be a bit of a sidewinder, but the plane fly's as good as any other.


I borrowed the first pic from airliners.net, and the second two I got from the FO this happened to.





 
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