What if ......

A

AndyG43

SOH-CM-2023
It is 1968. The government of Sir Alec Douglas-Home, having won the narrowest of election victories in 1964, remain committed to their ‘East of Suez’ policy; the UK Defence forces are going through a period of change & modernisation, to ensure they are adequately equipped for the role.
The Avro Vulcan has finally been joined by the BAC TSR.2 GR Mk 1. The TSR.2 programme has ended up well over budget, and well behind schedule, has been the subject of much debate at Whitehall and in the press; the RAF at one point expressed a preference for the American F-111, but the problems with that program are equally well documented. However, the aircraft that entered service at the beginning of this year is, without doubt, one of the finest strike aircraft available in the world today & is arguably the most advanced military aircraft in the world. The trials unit, 40 Squadron, and 237 OCU are developing the tactics that will be used by this innovative strike aircraft over the coming years; the first operational squadron, XV Squadron is in the process of forming at RAF Honington. The rest of the squadrons will be formed, largely, by re-equipping the current Canberra strike & recce units, with two more squadrons for the UK, four in RAFG, three at Akrotiri and one at Tengah. Two Canberra PR squadrons will be retained, using the high altitude PR9.

Yep, Matt Wynn & I have been a little busy recently!! I've been frustrated for a long time at the lack of repaints for my beloved TSR.2, and had reservations about the few that were available (if you are brave enough, PM me and I'll bore the socks of you with my reasoning!! :icon_lol: ); Matt used his considerable talents, and I have ridden on his coat tails, to produce a varied selection of repaints which we hope will meet with your approval. The project is still quite a way from completion, but we thought it might be nice to give you some WIP shots to whet your appetites; I'm tackling the RAF units (and one other air force) and Matt is doing the foreign repaints, including Greece, Australia, the Netherlands (in case Cees or Huub fancied something a little faster to get around) and even something for those of you across the Atlantic. Here are a few teasers, more to follow nearer the time ......

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Looks great Andy! A few more fictional repaints are always welcome for this aircraft!
 
Ferry_vO said:
A few more fictional repaints are always welcome for this aircraft!
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Well, so far I've done 28 repaints (still some finishing touches on them), with some more in the pipeline; not sure how many Matt has done (he is a busy guy after all, what with his involvement with the Tracker/Tracer) but I've seen screenshots of at least half a dozen!!
 
Oh yeah baby, that's what I'm talking about right there!! If only it had been a reality, given the choice of the Aardvark or the Claymore (well, I like it, lol) what sane bu993r would pick the one-eleven in hindsight? Ifit had succeeded how many air forces would've bought it?

Can I ask who's model, looks like Alpha's? Pierre did some nice paints for that one, I presume you have them? Either way, looking forward to these immensely. How about a full stretch of the imagination to a Royal Navy Sea Claymore in what would be a beautiful blue and white scheme (Buccaneer style)? Or a dedicated PRU reccon bird in fetching PRU blue/grey?

Oh man, she's to beautiful not to dress up in the best camo's. She'dlook good in USAF Europe 1 lizard too. Heck she'd look good in anything, lol.

Jamie
 
Saw the thread title, and thought there could only be one subject under discussion...

Be nice to see an Australian Vengeance, silly blighters bought Aardvarks because they thought they looked sexy.
 
Sir Alec Douglas-Home was a nice old fellow. Archetypical English gentleman of a type that no longer exists. We used to live across the road from his London address in the mid 70's. He always took the time to stop and have a brief chat when bumped into in the street. This was a time when former politicians didn't have to be surrounded 24/7 with security armed to the teeth.
 
just looked in my folder for TSR.2 and i have 14 schemes complete, 3 WIP and a further 3 possibles including RCAF and a 'what it' of just primers... and yes i have a Euro1 scheme planned too...

once the paintkit was made (how long did it take Andy? about 4 days?) it was fairly straight forward to get schemes done... to give you an idea of scale of the project the .rar i use to contain completed schemes (so i can't screw the pooch) is 209mb, but each texture file is around the 138mb mark in 32-bit format, in dxt probably can half that size...

once all is done i'll probably unleash the paintkit (Has layers configured for the camo pattern), kit contains all my usual stuff... paint, lines heck if you look closely at some schemes you'll even notice the flaking paint around panels...

all i can possibly say is stay tuned for the scramble :icon_lol:
 
OK Jamie and Firebar, you asked for it ...... :icon_lol: This is going to be serious anorak time!!

Pierre's paints are total works of art, way better than anything I could produce on my own (but Matt has given me a great base to work from); Pierre's repaints, and the profiles at Thunder & Lightnings, seem to draw their inspiration from the Xtradecal sets produced for the Airfix kits - they are incredibly impressive and visually stunning, but I always thought there was something not quite right. The Xtradecal guy used Vulcan squadrons and fighter units, just didn't make sense to me.

To me there is a certain logic as to which squadrons would have received TSR.2 (Jamie, I'm leaning towards Thunderbolt or Excalibur), and there is enough solid information out there to back up that logic to an extent. There was confirmed information that 40 Squadron would be the first unit, a trials unit or OEU; and 237 HAD to be the OCU, it was the only spare nameplate (did have to design a new squadron badge though) - and it was more or less confirmed that Coningsby would be the first base (the Victors were pulled out of there in 1964 in preparation).

So what comes next? Well, Honington or Marham were the choices for the second base; in the real world Marham became the tanker hub, which makes sense, so Honington it is. 15 Squadron had given up its Vulcans so, again, logic dictates that it was earmarked for conversion to TSR.2; after that, well, it has to be the Canberra squadrons surely, as Vulcan was now the main deterrent as the Victors were converted to tankers. 2 RAFG stations, take your pick (Bruggen & Geilenkirchen made most sense to me), the Akrotiri Strike Wing was originally scheduled for 3 squadrons and I thought we might as well put one out at Tengah. Jamie, don't forget that it was the TSR.2, the original RAF planning allowed for some squadrons to be tasked primarily as strike units, some as recce units; I've stuck with the same camo scheme, but given the recce units the badges of the Canberra recce squadrons.

That has implications for other future purchases; the RAF Phantoms would no longer be needed to fill in the gap in the strike/recce force, so could be used immediately as replacements for the Lightnings, as they were used eventually in our real world. Incidentally, my back story means that the Royal Navy upgrades Eagle for Phantoms as well, and goes ahead with CVA-01/02; so 892 is not the only Phantom unit - expect some 'different' Phantom repaints at some point. It also means a couple of different badges for Harrier squadrons (I've got a rather nice GR3 in 2 Squadron markings partially done). And Jaguar would not have happened at all, or would have been the less sophisticated trainer that it originally started out as. No Royal Navy birds I'm afraid - but hey, not stopping anybody else.

Which overseas air forces would have bought it? Australia makes a lot of sense, West Germany is a possibility, India would have been a strong candidate; you've already seen Matt's Dutch paint, and one of his Greek paints; South Africa would be a good prospect (yes, with grey and PRU blue) and possibly Rhodesia (although I suspect a Conservative government would have been less tolerant of the UDI shenanigans, so it could well have been pulled back into direct British rule). Some of the Arab states, Saudi had bought Lightnings, this would have been a good fit? And maybe Japan? Open to suggestions.

I did warn you that this would bring out my inner anorak!!:icon_lol:
 
I am asking out of pure ignorance here so do not take this the wrong way. In looking at the screen-shots in their small state within the post before one clicks on them for a larger view I could not help seeing a striking similarity between the TSR.2 and the A-5 Vigilante. They do seem to be quite similar on paper as well and the A5 flew first. SO how did everybody end up with the F-111 ?? Why not the A5 ??

Cheers
Stefan
 
Sunny9850 said:
I am asking out of pure ignorance here so do not take this the wrong way. In looking at the screen-shots in their small state within the post before one clicks on them for a larger view I could not help seeing a striking similarity between the TSR.2 and the A-5 Vigilante. They do seem to be quite similar on paper as well and the A5 flew first. SO how did everybody end up with the F-111 ?? Why not the A5 ??

Cheers
Stefan
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What do you mean, why not the A-5...... :icon_lol:

Sorry Stefan, couldn't resist. I've always liked the A-5, a real ferrari amongst bombers; apparently it gave fighters real problems during exercises. But I think it was ultimately a mixture of capability (that linear bomb bay, which was always buggy anyway, meant it wasn't very flexible), politics (the USAF had bought one Navy jet, the Phantom, couldn't see them going for another - and they were really sold on the F-111 for some reason) and time (TSR.2/F-111 were a few years later, so benefitted from improved technology - well, apart from the F-111s engines).

TSR.2 as designed, and F-111 (eventually) were designed from the start as multi role aircraft; although the Vigilante also took on the recce role, that was a totally new variant.

Actually, it was an interesting time all round, and there are a lot of potential "what ifs....."; for example, a lot of the funding for the Buccaneer actually came from the US, and very nearly got taken up by the US Navy - they went for the A-6 Intruder in the end, politics again. And what about the B-58 Hustler, there were several versions proposed which would have made the F-111 redundant. And let's not forget the French, who offered the RAF Spey-engined versions of both the Mirage III and Mirage IV.
 
Hey Andy,

nowt wrong with anoraks, I still miss my pak-a-mak I had as a child, couple of nifty moves, and hey presto, you had what resembled a bum-bag (fanny-pack across the pond).

Lets pretend they weren't sold to the Argentines, the '82 would've been a little more tricky :( A bit harder to cope with than an old Cranberry. Canada would be nice? How about the Aardvarks other original role of US Navy interceptor? And if it really was as fast as I've heard they thought it might go, why not a USAF SR-71 style scheme (okay it was never gonna be THAT fast, lol).

Jamie
 
JDTinballs said:
Lets pretend they weren't sold to the Argentines, the '82 would've been a little more tricky :( A bit harder to cope with than an old Cranberry. Canada would be nice? How about the Aardvarks other original role of US Navy interceptor? And if it really was as fast as I've heard they thought it might go, why not a USAF SR-71 style scheme (okay it was never gonna be THAT fast, lol).

Jamie
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I think Matt has some Canadian schemes in the pipeline. Of course in my scenario, '82 would never have happened as the Royal Navy would still have had some proper carriers; actually, the main reason the Argentinians chanced it was because they thought they were on to a sure things as the UK Government of the day was cutting the armed forces budget - sound familiar?

And as for the SR-71; well, I think Itosan's Avro 730 fits that bill rather admirably.
 
This is an absolutely class thread. Andy, you had me from the first post, with your alternate timeline. This is one of the best 'What Ifs' I've read, not only because it involves Britain maintaining East of Suez and keeps the TSR.2 flying, but it is well-written. If anyone here is has ever read 'Ministry of Space' well, can you imagine a graphic novel along the lines of Andy's what if scenario. Phwoar! TSR.2 dominating the skies...in all kinds of nifty paintwork. Tons of mods, upgrades etc. along the lines of my beloved Cranberry, 60 years of service...ok ok I am going off a bit here, but you get what I mean!

Lovely repaints so far, and yeah a RN scheme would be nice, but I want to see Sky and EDSG (think early Sea Hawks) rather than the later White/EDSG Bucc style scheme. Or both!

Alternate 82...well so much could have been different if they had left it later in the year to attack, fused their bombs correctly or used retarded ones, etc. etc. We all know the fortunes of war, but yes, if we'd proper flattops like Eagle with AEW Gannets a plenty and some Phantoms, Buccs etc. 'nuff said. Incidentally, not sure how well this is known, but there were negotiations for sale of Vulcans to the Argentines at one point, not sure how seriously but obviously they went the ex-US Navy direction in the end. Oh if only the Foreign office had been more lenient in selling them our ex-tech - we could have had some real hijinks against our own stuff. Canberra and Blowpipe missile would have just been the start of it.
 
Wow!!! :applause::applause::applause: I'm glad to see someone finally paying some attention to this gallant ol' bird. I have always liked the TSR-2 and regularly fly the ALPHA model. Those paints look GREAT, chaps! It'll be a real treat to slap some new colours on her.

BB686:USA-flag:
 
Steve, thanks for the comments, they are greatly appreciated.

Pete, might well have a look at 51 Squadron now you've suggested it. And BB, you'll have plenty to choose from when it is all done; I still need to do the stores repaints, but won't be too onerous. I've also been doing some DXT3 textures for the AI TSR2, and setting up some traffic files for a bit of fun; quite satisfying to see Akrotiri full of TSR'2s! :jump:
 
P Lheureux did some really nice repaints for the TSR2 also, It'll be great to have Andy's and Matt's superb brushwork for this plane in addition to those too! Problem is, I can only fly one at a time.:isadizzy:

I just recently found out how to do the loadouts (fictional) for the ALPHA TSR2....geezzz, I've been flying the plane all these years and never made the "psychic connection". But somehow, it doesn't surprise me.

And if you think that the sole purpose of this post is nothing more than an excuse to bump this thread... YOU'RE RIGHT. :bump:

BB686:USA-flag:
 
Motormouse said:
So we expand upon the R; why not some 'secret squirrel' birds for 51 Sqn

ttfn

Pete
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Anytime anyone wants to expand on 51 Sqn secret squirrel work I am all ears...could have a whole thread on that. Or perhaps 39 Sqn's involvement in a certain country in the southern hemisphere.
 
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