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  • Please see the most recent updates in the "Where did the .com name go?" thread. Posts number 16 and 17.

    Post 16 Update

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whats the point

Thanks

that was kinda the plan,

I was hoping that some people would read this and then go back to their forums and start answering some of these ignored posts from their members or take a more proactive approach to staff/member relations


but on the other hand, i hope it doesnt turn out like some forums where posts get deleted and locked and members get shut down when its clearly a case the member knows more than the dev, on a daily basis like one particular site i know


at the same time i dont want to see devs hung out to dry (with the exception of a few....)
 
For good or bad, I'm seeing companies being named. Please, leave company names out of this thread, regardless if its praise or prosecution. Not mentioning company names is the only way to maintain fairness in this thread, and I will have to insist on that fairness, even in the face of the intense emotions i know are being held wonderfully in check by you all..
If Names continue to be mentioned, I'm afraid that this thread will have to be closed down, and I really dont want to see that..
From another POV, I think this must be one of the most beneficial threads ever seen in this forum. You guys are awesome..
Paam
 
To add my 2 cents....there are at least 3 vendors I will not do business with again because of piss poor customer support:kilroy:
 
Yeah, my name was mentioned! And Thanks to Mr. Harris for that. :applause:

Straddling the middle ground, there's a common word that can (should?) apply to payware vendors and their customers. First, as a customer I should be able to have a reasonable expectation that the product is complete and performs as advertised. Late last year I took advantage of a sale and picked up three planes for $15.00! (No names, please! :kilroy:) Two out of the three perform OK, but the one I really want to fly crashes my XP64 system every time I access it, be it at the main menu or switching in-sim. I could piss and moan about it, but I'd rather wait until I upgrade from XP64 and try the plane on a new install of Win7. For the money that I spent on the product I don't have a lot invested that would go to waste if the problem persists. I like to think I'm being reasonable.

As a payware developer in the past and in the future, I understand and appreciate that my customers should have reasonable expectations that the product performs as advertised. I aim to exceed those expectations whenever possible. Since my work is terrain based it is difficult to run into issues that don't have some solution. But as I forum surf I do see customers, who I believe, have expectations that are not reasonable. A payware airport was recently released and one of the customers is demanding to know why it performs poorly on HIS system. The developer rightfully (IMO) claims it is not a product problem, because everyone isn't complaining. In fact hardly anyone is complaining. But the customer continues to demand to know why it performs poorly on HIS system.

I own five computers. One is 30 years old, another is 25-ish years old, another 10+ years old, one was built 4 years ago and another 18 months ago. That does not qualify me as a hardware guru. But there is the expectation that developers know or be able to diagnose every possible problem that might arise with their product. I don't feel that is being reasonable.

The thread started with a disgust, if I can use that term. about support issues going unresolved or unanswered. I see this during forum surfing or checking up on the competition. Even though I haven't sold a product for over a year (home sale, moving to another state, etc.) I still start my morning by checking my payware email accounts. There are people who gave me some of their money, even if it was a year or two ago. For them to do that gives them a sense of entitlement for continued support for as long as my site shows on the web. That, I do not feel, is the customer (my customer!) being unreasonable.


And I chose the term reasonable, because it means different things to different people. Kind of like a jury weighing evidence and finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to convict. Each vendor and each customer must define reasonable in their relationship and proceed accordingly.
 
Meshman said:
The thread started with a disgust, if I can use that term. about support issues going unresolved or unanswered. I see this during forum surfing or checking up on the competition. Even though I haven't sold a product for over a year (home sale, moving to another state, etc.) I still start my morning by checking my payware email accounts. There are people who gave me some of their money, even if it was a year or two ago. For them to do that gives them a sense of entitlement for continued support for as long as my site shows on the web. That, I do not feel, is the customer (my customer!) being unreasonable.
Click to expand...

this thread was not just about support issues, its any thing including general questions , there are forums with a range of topics ignored,

its about communication, and the lack of it I can link 2 forums right now where >70% of all posts go un answered
 
jeansy said:
this thread was not just about support issues, its any thing including general questions , there are forums with a range of topics ignored,

its about communication, and the lack of it I can link 2 forums right now where >70% of all posts go un answered
Click to expand...
I do not know if it's any consolation to you, but know that there are software houses that still have a lot of attention to their users.
We at SIM SKUNK WORKS are one of these, and there are others.
Fortunately there are not many, but all requests for support we have received on our forum were answered and solved within the first 24 hours.
There is none user that can disprove us.
cheers
SSW
 
LUCE1 said:
I do not know if it's any consolation to you, but know that there are software houses that still have a lot of attention to their users.
We at SIM SKUNK WORKS are one of these, and there are others.
Fortunately there are not many, but all requests for support we have received on our forum were answered and solved within the first 24 hours.
There is none user that can disprove us.
cheers
SSW
Click to expand...

What was the terminology for this again?
Ah yes, 'shameless plug' I believe? :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:
 
Ya'll not talking bout me, do ya?:kilroy::mixedsmi:

On a serious note, I do like Meshman's approach.
Honestly, I believe that's what most devs around here do, "go beyond reasonable expectations whenever possible".
Can't see a trend into the opposite direction but I may have missed something.
 
Mathias said:
Honestly, I believe that's what most devs around here do, "go beyond reasonable expectations whenever possible".
Can't see a trend into the opposite direction but I may have missed something.
Click to expand...

It is the ONLY real way to fight piracy, in fact. Selling to honest customers and providing them not only support with problems, but also compassion with their hobby, and hence BE part of the communities, is what really makes people decide to BUY a product and keep COMING BACK.

Everything else is rubbish :wavey:
 
In order to be clear, in what language would you then like it I wonder ? :icon_lol:

One of the mods said NO NAMES a few posts back.... ;-)
 
Flight, FSX, FS9, X-plane, Rome, Chicago, Shanghai, doesnt matter, wherever you go they all have one thing in common.. You, or me, or jack in the box or whatever, and untill we change our perspectives, the conversations will never change.. Yeah, its true: Flight will get people talking for a while, But you can read word for word what will be said, in the original FSX and FS9 posts from years ago.. THIS thread, has you talking, and its one of the best conversations i've seen: not because its enjoyable ( it isnt ) but because its high time these things were put on the table and discussed..
Mutual compassion is a term that springs to mind. I dont know why, but it does.. The Dev's and the customers understanding one another.. what a concept..
The problem with web based storefronts is they are misleading. They make you think your dealing with a major company of gods know how many people.. It doesnt show the person sitting there mostly alone plugging away at what they love doing in what spare time after their real job has ended for the day..
Nor do the web sites allow for understanding that a modeler/developer isnt necessarily a hardware/software/systems guru.. In fact, usually a modeler/developer, is just that and nothing more.. They are only human beings doing what they love. yeahh, i hear all the arguments about payware being different already.. But thats another flame and doesnt belong here.
There are obviously some places where you simply dont get a response to your call for help. Even a simple " I dont know " seems beyond them. Thats sad really, and hearing the frustrations of the customers gives the rest of us a clue. Most of us DO care what you think and feel after youve gotten our products. Most of us will go way out of our way to help as best we can. But we arent gods. We can only do so much. I'm sorry. Still, most of us do try..

It's sad that conversations like this one have to take place. it tells me that mankind as a whole hasnt grown much further than the tree branch it's swung from in millenia past. but it is necessary. This is how we communicate, learn and grow beyond our limitations. And we have a lot of limitations.

Arguments can be made from both sides of the coin. and honestly most of us here sit on both sides of the coin, as developers and as customers as well.. but theres that human thing again. Demands so high, criticisms so sharp, and gratitude at such a low extreme its almost unforgivable. but thats life for a dev. And most of us still try.. Not one word of thanks is ever said or hardly ever at best, and yet, we know you love what we do. you wouldnt be so angry when it didnt work if you didnt love it. We know this, and most of us try hard to help as best we can. but we dont always have all the answers..
Pam
 
Pam,"But we arent gods." You are right here, YOU are a goddess! I for one try to add good comments when I buy a piece of software, to be fair, most of what I have bought was quite worth the money spent. The range of support is all over the map. What I find most offensive, is when a dev will know about a problem, even before release and then drag his feet for months, promising patches or fixes, then continues to offer more "new" products for sale, like nothing has happened. I have a few that even though the new product seems quite good, I refuse to buy it when the last a/c after nine months has not had a "simple" fix as promised. Fortunatly most devs are hard at making adjustments to their products, and these I will support. Their are a very few that when they release something new, I will buy without alot of reviewing first, they are that good. And I will continue to do this until they slip backwards. I will not "plug" this one person, but he has been fantastic with his support, before and after purchase. I have even emailed him for advice as to if his product would continue to work fine if I bought "this other" devs work. It just doesn't get any better. Thank you Pam for not closing this thread, as I for one, think it is good to get it off your chest sometimes and vent. There will always be good and bad in this world, you just have to watch where you are walking so as not to step "in it". Don
 
warchild said:
The problem with web based storefronts is they are misleading. They make you think your dealing with a major company of gods know how many people.. It doesnt show the person sitting there mostly alone plugging away at what they love doing in what spare time after their real job has ended for the day...

Nor do the web sites allow for understanding that a modeler/developer isnt necessarily a hardware/software/systems guru.. In fact, usually a modeler/developer, is just that and nothing more...
Click to expand...

Well stated, Pam!

A decade ago there were eight people who shared a common interest and worked well together as a team. Over time, some drifted away for health reasons (either their's or immediate family's), lost interest, etc. Some new folks drifted in, worked awhile, then seemingly droppped into a black hole (or perhaps were eaten by Alien Space Bats). Whatever the reasons, that once dynamic team are now reduced to simply "Two and Half Men..."

Exacerbating the issue is that there are simply few new folks picking up the "development bug" to replace those who've moved on. It leaves everyone at a disadvantage, both developers and customers alike! There aren't enough hours in the day for any person to suddenly find him/herself handling a dozen different "jobs" each day... :crybaby:
 
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