Who killed GM....

[MudMarine]

I agree with all of this, except that I must point out that American auto makers had a hand in lobbying FOR much of that stupid legislation.

Rather than try to produce cars that competed with imports, they lobbied for legislation that would make the requirements for vehicles that were imported to the US different than the laws that exist in their home markets.

Take crash bumpers for example. American laws judge bumpers differently than similar laws in Japan or Europe. As a result, any company that builds cars for for the Japanese or European market and also wants to sell cars in the US have to engineer two sets of bumpers to meet two disparate standards.

The big three lobbied Congress for these laws in the 1970's, not for the interest of vehicle safety, but to make the process of engineering cars for the American market more expensive for European and Japanese automakers.

But it also had the effect of making it more expensive for American manufacturers to engineer their vehicles to for the Japanese and European market.

At the time they didn't care, because the US market was the largest, most profitable in the world. So they willingly ceded the foreign markets to the foreign manufacturers and tried again and again through similar legislation to stem the tide of the imports.

In the last 10 years, since they have seen that the import invasion is not just a fad, and not going to go away, or even stop growing, rather than try to compete they've tried to appeal to American Nationalism, by showing flags and playing patriotic songs in their commercials.

They've also retreated to the only market that they really make good money on anymore, trucks. They've made trucks into family vehicles and they were successful in making people think that they need a 5000lb SUV for their family car for safety reasons. Too bad they couldn't force the oil companies to keep fuel prices to where more people could afford to drive such vehicles.

They've totally brought it on themselves. They ignored trends in design, they ignored trends in engineering, they lobbied for legislation that decreased their own profitability, they laid off and exported the jobs of many of their own customers. Goodbye GM.

If there ever is going to be a viable US Auto Manufacturing industry again, they need to design cars with an eye towards the global market. Without Government subsidy, a local-market-only scheme cannot be a viable business model for a company the size of GM.

Poor management is naturally a huge part of what happened to GM. The government dangled huge dollar signs in front of the GM ex's eyes and they took the bait. They also caved to crazy union demands, ones they knew they couldn't sustain. Please don't forget about the "cafe" standards legislated by Washington. Green cars........I have a can of paint and I'll paint my car green.......:isadizzy:

 

[MudMarine]

apparently i'm in the minority here, but for me, this is one of the tiredest topics anymore. i'm starting to really not care about stuff like this because i didn't break it, and i can't fix it. having never owned a brand new car in my life, i don't see it really effecting me directly. even if i did buy a new car someday (which i doubt i ever would) it wouldn't be an american car anyhow.
in my mind, the players will fix it or they won't. either way, i don't work for them or any sattelite industry. good luck to them, adios, arrevederci, sayonara, cya l8tr, buh-bye.

It effects EVERY American! I for one refuse to sit by and watch my country go down the crapper. Believe me I understand your fustration! But don't let them turn you off, it's what they want!

 

[6297J]

Another car company will take GM's place and do a much better job!

Yes, but it won't be American.

I told you ages ago that you should start learning Chinese Mud

 

[MudMarine]

Yes, but it won't be American.

I told you ages ago that you should start learning Chinese Mud

Wrong! I'm sorry you have so little faith in a country that's done what ours has, what we have done together as nations. I've yet to see Chinese cars, where are they? One thing I can say for certain is I'll never drive a Chinese car. America will over come and adapt. The idea that some how because of the stituation we're in right now is going to lead us to speak Chinese...........sorry but I find that foolish.

The idea that we survived WWII, for example, and continued forward as a nation should remind people that GM is just a small part of our economy. Granted a important part but if we can help win a world war we can surely overcome one failed auto company. I have that faith.

 

[GT182]

Since like 60 percent is now owned by the government (read: taxpayers) --
do we all get owner discounts now?

Are you kidding! The taxpayers are not in or any part of the "deal". Walk in to a GM dealership and tell them you want an "owner's discount". Then see how long it takes for them to start laughing at you. Like the old saying..."Play ball with us and we'll shove the bat in yer a**."

GM killed themselves.... unions had nothing to do with it. If it weren't for the unions, GM would have their way and paid minimal wages, and no pensions or health benefits. GMs own stupidity and greed did themselves in. The future of the car industry arrived back in 72 and they ignored it. Remember the first Honda Civic?

 

[MudMarine]

Legacy costs and union wages had nothing to do with it?

 

[6297J]

The idea that somehow because of the stituation we're in right now is going to lead us to speak Chinese...........sorry but I find that foolish.

OK, Spanish then!

The idea that we survived WWII, for example, and continued forward as a nation should remind people that GM is just a small part of our economy. Granted a important part but if we can help win a world war we can surely overcome one failed auto company. I have that faith.

Actually one of the biggest reasons we in the UK 'continued forward as a nation' after WWII is because the US lent us the money!
Who do you think is going to be lending the US the cash to get out of this fix?

china

 

[Lionheart]

gm couldnt create a profit any longer.

What corporation on the planet needs a loan of 30 Million a year to keep their doors open???? Goodness.

Time to start baking pies! Time to hold a sale! Time to rethink. oops.. too late.


Meanwhile, other companies are working their bah-gee-bah's off, trying to come out with the best cars, marketing them, being careful with their money.


Did you know, BMW have never been in the red? (unless it happened in the last several years). They have always been in the green. About the only car company that has ever done this.


What if...... What if the United States Government turns GM into a 'once-again' powerful company? What if they turn it around into a cool company that is producing legendary cars again? That would be pretty cool. Maybe gm just needs a total overhaul, a complete rebuild, new management, new employment pay strategies, a smarter money flow/work flow system. The possibilities exist. This is a ship that might possibly be saved.

I think, since we have GM now, we could start making electric cars again! The worlds first, mass produced electric car, 'for the people, by the people'. Get the EV team back in there, set them up at Saturn, and get some designers in there and see what awesome car they can come up with.....



Bill

 

[Lionheart]

Just sitting here thinking on 'What if.....'

In the old days, alot of these guys that started companies wanted their companies to be a good thing for the community. A 'good' car that people would talk about and be proud of, and not think, right after they bought it, that they had been taken.

And a company that took care of their employees. Fed them, gave them lives. Not overpaid them, but paid them fair. They took care of the company because the company took care of them.

And, the 'old world' corporation leader thought of higher plateaus as well, like 'the good of the country', and by this, I mean America, not China. England, not China. You never see that anymore. GM was so quick to build cars everywhere but here. And they did have issues with overpaying, etc, so it was expensive.. Why? What happened...?

I just hope America recovers from this and better corporations are raised up and created that will handle the job better. America needs work, America needs a goal and a dream.... The battle is on...

 

[kurt190]

OK, Spanish then!





Actually one of the biggest reasons we in the UK 'continued forward as a nation' after WWII is because the US lent us the money!
/QUOTE]

Those loans were a two edged sword to say the least.

kurt

 

[6297J]

Those loans were a two edged sword to say the least.

kurt

McTell me about it!


(Spooky - http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=17207 )

 

[JSpal]

Poor management is naturally a huge part of what happened to GM. The government dangled huge dollar signs in front of the GM ex's eyes and they took the bait. They also caved to crazy union demands, ones they knew they couldn't sustain. Please don't forget about the "cafe" standards legislated by Washington. Green cars........I have a can of paint and I'll paint my car green.......:isadizzy:

If the Government had not dangled dollars in front of the Execs' faces, GM would already be dead and all those people laid-off.

Also, CAFE standards and emissions laws have historically been much lower than their foreign counterparts. As a result the foreign companies adapted to the higher standards long ago.

GM, Chrysler, and Ford were not forced to adapt. They procrastinated and when gasoline went to $4/gallon, they didn't know how to make a fuel efficient car, the market for their only really profitable product evaporated in less than 6 months, and they were left with no truly viable product.

The flaw with the free-market part of Capitalism is that is has horrible foresight. People rarely adopt new products until there is a real benefit - especially when that product is as expensive as a car. As a result there is no motivation for companies to develop new technology until there is already demand for it.

Regulation is a tool the the people use (through Government) when market forces fail to encourage companies to act in a responsible manner.

GM never had market forces to encourage them to make world-class efficient cars and they fought the Government's attempts to create that impetus through regulation.

If GM had not fought to keep CAFE and emissions standards lower and instead spent that lobbying money on R&D on fuel efficiency instead, their cars would have been competitive in the market when gas prices exploded.

In a business where product cycles can be five years or longer, there is no hope for a company that suddenly finds that there is no demand for their current product. They are five years away from a viable product and have little income to sustain them.

 

[wombat666]

Once again we disagree on all points. I didn't "loan" my money to GM, it was taken by politicians. GM should fail, will fail and life will go on. People find new and better jobs, I have in the past, why can't the auto workers?! It would be MUCH better in the short term to allow GM to tank, the long term multiple bailout to come will damage our economy much more. Use the example of AMTRAC then multiply it by 10, thats what we'll get with a government run car company.
This idea that unions have that working one job for your life is crazy. That is socialism not capitalsim. The idea that the US auto industry will be gone is wrong, we are Americans, we over come and adapt! It's what we do best. Another car company will take GM's place and do a much better job!

I doubt if the huge number of people ALREADY retrenched (union and non-union, directly and indirectly!) will find it easy in the present financial situation to "find new and better jobs".

Agree that the one job for life fixation is not only ridiculous, it went down the crapper years ago!

I'm very anti-union, just for the record, 100 years or so past they had their place but that was then, the World is a much different place today.

Considering that Germany, Italy, Japan, UK and France (they actually admitted so!!!) along with the bulk of the EU are in a severe reccession, allied to the fact that China has 30M people out of work, I doubt that just saying "The idea that the US auto industry will be gone is wrong, we are Americans, we over come and adapt! It's what we do best" means very much at all.
I'm not meaning to be derogatory, a positive atitude is great, but someone, somewhere, somehow needs to take action, and like it or not, the 'Government' (be it Australia or America, and I hasten to add I wouldn't vote for our lot in a blind fit!!) are who we are stuck with ..............

 

[cheezyflier]

I for one refuse to sit by and watch my country go down the crapper.

too late. the whole country is a bunch of ants standin on a turd thinkin "if the log rolls over we'll drown" no matter if someone flushes. it's still in the toilet.

 

[MyassisDragon]

Lousy management over many years killed GM.

 

[Wing_Z]

"What's good for GM, is good for America"

Actually looking from the outside at all this, the most shocking part is that having "won" the Cold War, America is set to become the biggest socialist force on the planet.
A little homework produces this gem:
In the final part of Das Kapital Marx deals with the issue of revolution. Marx argued that the laws of capitalism will bring about its destruction. Capitalist competition will lead to a diminishing number of monopoly capitalists, while at the same time, the misery and oppression of the proletariat would increase. Marx claimed that as a class, the proletariat will gradually become "disciplined, united and organised by the very mechanism of the process of capitalist production" and eventually will overthrow the system that is the cause of their suffering.
We live in interesting times...

 

[Henry]

Once again we disagree on all points. I didn't "loan" my money to GM, it was taken by politicians. GM should fail, will fail and life will go on. People find new and better jobs, I have in the past, why can't the auto workers?!

I wish it was that easy
your first point is correct
the second, people find new and better jobs
when you are as old as I
and GM shuts a plant down
the chances of a new and better job
puts me in the Wal mart greeting crowd
GM in europe is probably fine never liked Vauxhalls
but my dad had a few
its a dammed if you do and dammed if you dont situation
looks like the government wants small cars
GM has done well with the large ones
to me there is not one person in the US would be willing
to have a compact GM
so i do believe it will fail.
Why GM failed?
i believe GM, Chrysler and to a point Ford
have all failed
i remember in the 60's
when the Japanese motorcycles came to the UK
then Norton, BSA etc
was standard but Honda etc
just came out with cheaper more accessories
etc etc
its happening here
H

 

[Cerberus]

gm couldnt create a profit any longer.

What corporation on the planet needs a loan of 30 Million a year to keep their doors open???? Goodness.

Time to start baking pies! Time to hold a sale! Time to rethink. oops.. too late.


Meanwhile, other companies are working their bah-gee-bah's off, trying to come out with the best cars, marketing them, being careful with their money.


Did you know, BMW have never been in the red? (unless it happened in the last several years). They have always been in the green. About the only car company that has ever done this.


What if...... What if the United States Government turns GM into a 'once-again' powerful company? What if they turn it around into a cool company that is producing legendary cars again? That would be pretty cool. Maybe gm just needs a total overhaul, a complete rebuild, new management, new employment pay strategies, a smarter money flow/work flow system. The possibilities exist. This is a ship that might possibly be saved.

I think, since we have GM now, we could start making electric cars again! The worlds first, mass produced electric car, 'for the people, by the people'. Get the EV team back in there, set them up at Saturn, and get some designers in there and see what awesome car they can come up with.....



Bill

You probably mean billions. NASA comes to mind when I think of what the Government can do to a company, been going downhill since the 70's. The technology in 2001 A Space Odyssey was all virtually present at the time with the exception of the super intelligent computer and advances in induced hibernation.

The government hasn’t been able to fulfill my dreams of space exploration and most are now looking to the private sector to do that now. If the United States private sector can accomplish the same thing only a few nations in the entire world can do, and are currently one-upping our own government in making space accessible to all and with fractions of the cost, why should we expect the government to do wonderful things with the car industry that the private sector couldn’t do.

 

[Henry]

You probably mean billions. NASA comes to mind when I think of what the Government can do to a company, been going downhill since the 70's. The technology in 2001 A Space Odyssey was all virtually present at the time with the exception of the super intelligent computer and advances in induced hibernation.

The government hasn’t been able to fulfill my dreams of space exploration and most are now looking to the private sector to do that now. If the United States private sector can accomplish the same thing only a few nations in the entire world can do, and are currently one-upping our own government in making space accessible to all and with fractions of the cost, why should we expect the government to do wonderful things with the car industry that the private sector couldn’t do.

you have that right!
H

 

[CrashnBurns]

Why did GM (and Chrysler and Ford) fail?

Less than $2.50/gallon gas!

It's that simple.

While the Prius drivers all lamented that we didn't build small cars, and MM put out that crap about the EV-1, the people with real MONEY, who actually wanted to BUY vehicles, were buying trucks and SUV's faster than we could make them. Talk is cheap, people with dollars in their hand dictate what we sell. How foolish of us for selling what people wanted to buy! What were we thinking?

When gas was less than $2.50/gallon, we had 7 plants turning out trucks and SUV's as fast as we could, and selling every one at a tidy profit.

When gas went above $2.50, the truck market dried up, overnight! We couldn't give them away.

We were back to being idiots because we couldn't convert those plants over to making "Smart" cars in the blink of an eye. Should we have has more small cars, probably. Trucks were selling. Remember, Toyota (the geniuses) were desperately trying to start up THEIR truck plant in Texas, only to slow it down when gas prices soared. Were they idiots too?

Guess what happened when gas prices came back down? People with $$$ wanted TRUCKS again! They just can't get financing now. Don't worry, CEO Obama will have us turning out "global" small cars ASAP. You won't mind driving the same cars as we sell in India will you? They make the "Smart" look HUGE!

Crash