First of all, I apology if I've appeared a bit rude or something, it wasn't my intention at all. :ernae:
You read a book on Fonck, I've spoken to MANY an author, and MANY a reader on many a forum over many a year... about him. Those "experts" all came back to the same opinion, which was based on many books with written personal accounts over decades long gone.
I can write a book, and base it on an opinion I form, and state what I want, and paint the picture I want you to see based on my interpretation of quotes and facts. But when several other books that have been written about him and other pilots say the same thing about 1 particular man, I tend to think the consensus is correct.
Do you honestly think that I was only replying because of a single book I read. Please mate...
I've provided you with several quotes (which aren't from the book) from persons whom known Fonck.
Well, I think this idea about the self-centered personality of Fonck is mainly (if not all) coming from Haegelen's quote; not from experts. The truth is that not so much biographical work has been published about Fonck, and I don't see any reason to give more credit to Haegelen's point of view than to the one of Coppens, Biddle, Garros, et al. which is obviously different.
Additionaly, Haegelen's well-known quote is a reported translation of what he actually said in French, isn't it?... It would be nice to have the exact original sentence... Not that I don't believe in the translation, but because if you have a look at what others said, he apparently was the only one with this point of view.
That's not a matter of a single book I read, or anything personal between you and me; or because of the well-known arrogance of French as you all seem to believe; nothing subjective indeed...
He was a great pilot, and most likely an expert marksmen, but not well liked amongst his peers.
Here is a simple example of what I am saying right from the easiest source.... Wikipedia.... I didn't even have to hunt very hard.
"Yet for all his skill and success, Fonck never captured the heart of the French public as Guynemer had. Fonck was ascetic and withdrawn. Instead of drinking or socializing with the other pilots, he planned his flying missions and tactics, ironed his uniforms, and stayed physically fit through calisthenics. He seemed to overcompensate for his shyness by constantly mentioning his exploits. As a result, he seemed distant, arrogant, even abrasive. His comrades respected his skills, but even one of his few friends,
Claude Haegelen, considered him a braggart and shameless self promoter. Fonck may have resented the fact that
Georges Guynemer remained more popular in the French press even after he surpassed him in victories. Fonck also seemed to lack insight into the effect his personality had upon his image or career. He was never given a command of his own."
So what? Haegelen again; why not quoting someone else? That's biased; you can't take only one and ignore all the others.
About the fact that he never got a commanding role isn't because of his personality but because of his rank. Simple as that. Although it might not have been a matter in another unit, Fonck ended the war as a Lieutenant with SPA 103, and the last 2 COs of his squadron were Capitaine Joseph Battle (27th March 18 - 4th November 18) and Capitaine Charles Dupuy (4th November 18 - Armistice). Fonck was reported as only a Lieutenant in the combat log of Les Cigognes (last 2 claims he did on November the 1st were over 2-seaters, at 14h20 and 14h35 respectively, of which only the first one was confirmed the following day -other one is noted as Probable-, and he is reported as "Lieutenant Fonck"). Fonck got his promotion for Lieutenant rank on mid-may 18 (I can't locate the exact date by the way; but he's reported as S/Lt. early this month and then as Lt. at the end of it).
The same could be said of Göring... before he commited suicide, the US Soldier assigned to 'assist' him during the Nuremberg Trials wrote that he was a kind and understanding man, very respectable, and intelligent. Sure... but what about all the other crap he was known for.. like helping cause Udet's suicide amongst other things far worse.
I fully second you about Goering. It's sad to say but he was a smart individual with very superior Wechsler's IQ (as far as I know, one among the highest of the nazi leaders whom were at Nuremberg -in the top 1% if I remember correctly-), obviously mastering a wide-range of culture, well educated, looking good, and respectable... but he was a bloody criminal.
About the friendship between Fonck and Goering (and Udet), you have to know that most of the living Aces of WW1 were used to be "friends" (which might not be the appropriate word actually, it more looks like a kind of respect). In 1938, living aces met each others more than once, and Goering organised meetings; well, he was very proud of the Luftwaffe and Goering's meetings were less about friendship than about 'look at the power of my luftwaffe'... The direct consequence was another warning of Fonck about the danger of the German's power and the weakness of the French's one; and interestingly, that in the hypothesis of war, France will loose against Germany because of badly-trained pilots, inadequate equipement, etc. He became hated for all those 'non-patriotic' reports:
In 1923:
"Si le malheur voulait qu’une nouvelle guerre éclatât, nous aurions en face de nous une Allemagne terriblement armée dans le domaine de l’air." more or less ~
"Unfortunately, in case of new war, we will faced a Germany with a strong Air force".
In 1935: "
Si la guerre survenait, 80% des pilotes seraient incapables de descendre un adversaire avec le matériel existant" i.e.: "In time of war, 80% of our pilots wouldn't be able to shot down an opponent with existing equipement".
The common sense of French poeple at that time has been completely pacifist while the Germans felt like they were humiliated by the Diktat of Versailles (which unfortunately wasn't an act peace as it must have been, but the last act of war). It's not difficult to think that the warnings he used to published were good food to support his supposed self-centered personality and that he was the guy who thought 'I'm always right', always giving others lessons. I understand that as much as I understand the feeling of the Germans. WW1 was supposed to be the Der des Der (the last of the lasts), among others, tons of French died, generations of males have gone, many survivors have felt into madness etc., as a result of traumatism and a prevaricated idea about the relationship between peace and war. The French were blind, and refused to look at what has been going on in Germany since
at least 30th January 1933.
PS... welcome to the OFF forum... you made a hell of an entrance.
Thanks.
I didn't want to made a hell of an entrance (first post I did was about Verdun's front map BTW), but only to talk objectively. Appart from the "Arrogant Frechman" insulting post (which is not yours
), my main concern is about all the credit which has been given to a single translated opinion of Claude Haegelen while several other persons were sharing a completely different point of view. Those persons aren't less truthfull than Haegelen (at least on an historical point of view)... or it has to be proven, not to be believed. The fact that it's the commonly accepted point of view doesn't mean that it's the correct one.
Well, I just wanna share the data I've eventually gathered over years; not to be arrogant lol or to say look at my opinion because that's the only One.
Maybe Fonck was arrogant, maybe not... I hardly believe he wasn't based on what I'm quoting. Everybody is free to agree or not, it doesn't matter actually. But, I've read tons of mistakes written about Fonck such as 'he fully supported Vichy regime', 'he was a nazi', etc. which are obviously wrong (as far as I know, the nazis weren't used to imprisonned themselves into Drancy camp -or another one; and after the libération, French authorities weren't used to give Certificate of Resistance award to collaborators... it was most likely the contrary, arbitrary denouncement was frequent, poeple were seen denouncing a neighbor, or basically just a person they didn't like). Knowing this makes you read very carefully what has been written.
