WWI Ace - Rene Fonck - 75 victories

[before]

We're a Flight Sim community, with a few historians sprinkled here and there

Yea, a good place to talk about that, and generally to talk about the WW1 history as a whole cause accuracy of the sim is what makes it interesting, isn't it?

This alone should tell you something about Fonck. Rickenbacker, MvR, Udet, Göring, even Frank Luke had books and movies made about them... not Fonck. No one like an arrogant jerk, it doesn't sell, and no one cares. That's like writing a book about the guy up the street who has the biggest house, and the biggest cars and spends his whole day shoving it in your face about how good he is and how much he has. Why would you want to read about that?

Well, even Guynemer doesn't have so much books written about him here in France. A shame IMHO.

Why the Haegelen quote, most likely he was the only person that was willing, and close enough to Fonck to put his name to his words. Plus it was a name people could recognize. Are they going to quote the mechanic, the new guy, the CO? No. The quote the people who everyone recognizes. Hey, I commend the guy for being honest. If Fonck was such a nice guy, then why not teach more of the French pilots his tactics... nope... keep it to yourself so you can be the best. Hence... self-centered. I don't remember anyone saying that about Boelcke, or Immelmann.. or even Coppens himself.

Haegelen wasn't the only one. Nevermind.

Again... I appreciate your desire to defend Fonck, and your arguments and data are well fit for your opinion, but it will not change what was written about him from many a person that knew of him. Not just Haegelen. When your WHOLE COUNTRY dislikes you... you have a problem.

That's the data one can reasonability find. Maybe it's easier for a French indeed. Well, the fact that the probability for poeple to change their views is low doesn't mean that everybody must speak the same way. Even if telling something different might appear useless, I see no reason not to share additional facts.

I would be happy if poeple barely start to think, 'humm well, he is supposed to have been an arrogant bastard, but apparently that's not so sure anyway'. No matter what they will think from this point; Fonck personality isn't all black or all white.

As for the whole Nazi thing.... again... choose your freinds wisely. If Fonck truly cared for his country .... he would have given more than just 'advice'. He should have been involved in training the new pilots of the French Airforce, helping select equipment... test planes, give combat advice, pressure the government... even get more involved in politics. No, he gives warning in public format.

He was involved in Politics indeed before the war, but was hated and mostly ignored for the warnings he used to do. Here some things of what he did at that time:

1925 to 1927: technical advisor for the USAF. Then as a reserve Capitaine first, and later as a reserve Commandant, he took part in trainings with the 34th Régiment d'Aviation (1927, 1931, 1933, 1934, 1936) but not as an instructor... The French army asked him to do so in order to get the right to fly in the air service. In 1935 he worked with the government in order to improve the training of pursuit pilots (but nothing is said if the government actually followed him)... He eventually got elected as the Deputé des Vosges, and probably got lots of political enemies from this period. It was probably a mistake.

During the war, as I've already said, he became outlaw for Vichy regime and left Vichy for Paris where after having helped mates such as Heurtaux (another friend of him...; cf. the whole citation of his Certificate of Resistance); he was then imprisonned in Drancy camp by the nazis. So... history speaks for his role for his country -> that's why he has been awarded the so-called Certificate in 1948.

:ernae:

 

[before]

For those whom are actually interested (if any ), back on Fonck the Pilot and not the man... I've readed a bit today; and I've found this quote from ace Lt. Maurice Boyau:

"Fonck dépasse tout ce que l'on peut imaginer. Ce n'est pas un homme, c'est un oiseau de proie. Là-haut, il sent l'ennemi, il en distingue nettement à 8 ou 10km sans être vu. Il choisit sa proie. Quelques balles suffisent, il n'y a jamais eu de riposte."
i.e. "Fonck exceeds all that we can imagine. He's not a human, but a bird of prey. In the sky, he feels the enemy, he clearly distinguishes them at about 8 to 10km around without being seen himself. He choses his prey. Only few bullets are necessary, he never even got a counteract."

And this one from Fonck:

"Le but est de tuer en épargnant sa vie. Moi, je me bats sur mes atouts, c'est à dire la vitesse du Spad, sa solidité. De plus, je connais à fond, pour avoir fait leur métier la mentalité des régleurs et de ceux de la reconnaissance. Je sais aussi la contradiction de manoeuvre qu'il peut y avoir entre un pilote et son observateur. J'utilise tout cela, je prends mon temps, j'essaie toujours de combiner un plan d'attaque qui me laisse l'effet de surprise."
i.e. "Aim is to kill while saving your life. I fight with my skills, which are the speed of the Spad and its solidity. Additionally, because I've already done their job, I deeply know the mentality of observers. I know the contradiction in operation that can exist between the pilot and his observer. I use all those things, I take my time, I always try to draw a tactic taking care of the effect of surprise."

 

[Bungo_Pete]

My favorite unknown ace is probably von eschwege not sure if I spelled that right,he flew on the turkish front,where there were not alot of opportunities for aerial victories...his hallmark was taking off from a dead stop with full throttle

 

[Skywolf]

My, My, My. Arguing about a war that happened 90 years ago. These debates will happen over and over again, because everyone has their side of the story. As for me, I won't get into it, as I don't know to much about Fonck, but I do know that Guyenmer was shot down by a french AA battery:isadizzy:. He survived!

 

[Catfish]

Ot

@Bungo_Pete

Eschwege, nicknamed the "Eagle of Drama" (where Drama is a city in northern Greece) was indeed a very good pilot - Kurt Jentsch writes quite a bit about him, and their life at the macedonian frontline. They used to fly Pfalz monplanes then (derived from the french Morane Parasol), and later the Fokker monoplanes, which were said to handle much better than the Pfalz.

Eschwege managed to make a deadstick landing with his Pfalz in a field of rocks and stones, without even damaging it. They had problems to transport the plane back to their aerodrome with all those rocks and stones in the Vardar valley.
There were also some bad accidents, one of them being Eschwege losing his mechanic during a looping - the observer's seat was not fastened to the fuselage, and the mechanic plummeted to death. There was a trick to tighten a looping in stopping the engine at the highest point, and lacking the centripetal force the observer fell.
Don't know whether this book has ever been translated ? Title in german is "Als Jagdflieger im Feuer" ~ "Under Fire as a Scout pilot"(?)

Greetings,
Catfish

 

[Bungo_Pete]

@Bungo_Pete

Eschwege, nicknamed the "Eagle of Drama" (where Drama is a city in northern Greece) was indeed a very good pilot - Kurt Jentsch writes quite a bit about him, and their life at the macedonian frontline. They used to fly Pfalz monplanes then (derived from the french Morane Parasol), and later the Fokker monoplanes, which were said to handle much better than the Pfalz.

Eschwege managed to make a deadstick landing with his Pfalz in a field of rocks and stones, without even damaging it. They had problems to transport the plane back to their aerodrome with all those rocks and stones in the Vardar valley.
There were also some bad accidents, one of them being Eschwege losing his mechanic during a looping - the observer's seat was not fastened to the fuselage, and the mechanic plummeted to death. There was a trick to tighten a looping in stopping the engine at the highest point, and lacking the centripetal force the observer fell.
Don't know whether this book has ever been translated ? Title in german is "Als Jagdflieger im Feuer" ~ "Under Fire as a Scout pilot"(?)

Greetings,
Catfish

good stuff there I remember reading about him in a book called canvas falcons or some such title an they did a blurb on him pretty good book too
another book I would recommend is a book called flying fury,basically the war diary of james mcudden reaslly liked the parts where he talked about "good ol'e green tail" a german in an albatross that he constantly kept seeing and finally tangled with.

 

[Waldemar Kurtz]

http://www.theaerodrome.com

that's the BEST place in the entire internet to discuss Fonck's character, victories, and public perception of him.

some of the biggest and brightest names in WWI aviation history frequent those boards. if you want to change people's minds about Rene Fonck and his legacy--you'll have to convince THOSE guys about your argument. since there are more than a few published authors that visit those forums.

to quote OVS, this is a flight-sim board. quoting the French back at people will probably just convince people that you're a snob. take it over to the Aerodrome forums (specifically under "People") and you'll find the best place. I can't say that you'll find what you're looking for--because that appears to be changing the world's opinion of Rene Fonck--and that would take more than a generation or so to change.

 

[before]

http://www.theaerodrome.com

that's the BEST place in the entire internet to discuss Fonck's character, victories, and public perception of him.

Thanks mate. I already know it quite well... :ernae:

some of the biggest and brightest names in WWI aviation history frequent those boards. if you want to change people's minds about Rene Fonck and his legacy--you'll have to convince THOSE guys about your argument. since there are more than a few published authors that visit those forums.

Everybody is free to believe, to be right or wrong. I feel unconfortable to justify myself for responding to a thread about Fonck... Take this thread from the begining and you'll see that ovs has firstly written his opinion, and then I've written mine...

Where's the matter? His opinion is based on what it's commonly accepted as the appropriate truth, and mine his based on several other sources which were required to be given in order to make my point understandable.

Maybe it wasn't allowed to say something different...??? Then I'm so sorry to disturb you.

Also, history (and not only) isn't a matter of persons... You won't make the truth 90+ years after T time, by only getting approbation of some; but you'll get closer to it by looking for and gathering evidences. (Don't get me wrong, I've must respect for poeple at theaerodome.com --again, it isn't a matter of persons)

Anyway, I've never said that I'm the owner of the correct sense of believing; I've just tried to explain my opinion.

to quote OVS, this is a flight-sim board.

So what? Does this means that history must be ignored or barely taken lightly? Of course no... the quality of a sim is obviously its accuracy in all aspects. Word simulation speaks for itself, doesn't it?

To be honest, accuracy is what amazed me while looking at P3 preview movies.

quoting the French back at people will probably just convince people that you're a snob.

I don't get you here... a snob? Why?

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, but everything (minus 1 sentence for which I was afraid of making too much mistakes) that I've quoted in French is also translated to english in order to make it understandable to the most. Quoting things without making them understandable would have been useless. By the way, only giving my own translations would have been unfair; quotes are from French, so I've made the effort to write the French original quote first, and then to write a self-made translation.

You seem to not agree with me, does that make you a snob/rude, or something? You seem to try to teach/suggest me how to do things, does that make you a snob?

Come on, I'm just giving an opinion and explaining it. Nothing personal. :ernae:

 

[OldSimmer]

"All the americans are fat and eat only hamburgers and drink Coca Cola?"

Here now! I love burgers... and drink Coke!! I'm not TOO bad overweight... am I? (Do these sweat pants make my butt look big?)

Andre Ming
Eastern OK

 

[ns13jarhead]

" (Do these sweat pants make my butt look big?)

I once told my ex-wife, "no, your pants don't make your butt look big, it's your a$$ that makes your butt look big." I slept on the couch for a week.:isadizzy:

 

[before]

"All the americans are fat and eat only hamburgers and drink Coca Cola?"

Here now! I love burgers... and drink Coke!! I'm not TOO bad overweight... am I? (Do these sweat pants make my butt look big?)

Andre Ming
Eastern OK

As a French, I love burgers as well (and pizza... :d)... Frenchies and Americans are not so different indeed.

I once told my ex-wife, "no, your pants don't make your butt look big, it's your a$$ that makes your butt look big." I slept on the couch for a week.:isadizzy:

:costumes: I won't ever say that to mine if I want to stay alive...

 

[Catfish]

Hello,

" ... I once told my ex-wife, "no, your pants don't make your butt look big, it's your a$$ that makes your butt look big." ..."

"Semper fidelis"

Greetings,
Catfish