Windows 10 Update and 3D Studio Max 2015 Train Wreck

[gman5250]

I thought I post this up with two objectives in mind. First to seek for any clues from other members who have experience with Windows 10 and 3DS Max, and secondly to put up a be advised to those who may be considering Windows 10.

Preface

I spent nearly four weeks offline recently, and found that my workflow was extremely productive without the various distractions and updates that find their way in via the information superhighway. I primarily worked in 3DS Max, Photoshop, Quixel and the various peripherals associated with aircraft and scenery design.

I’ll preface the remainder of this post by confirming that my Autodesk, Windows and Adobe platforms are completely up to date, along with my NVIDIA drivers. I’ve updated P3D and its SDK to 3.4.9.18400 which actually is working quite well, so if I can’t work…I can, at the very least, do a bit of flying.

I've checked all of the various areas that one would look for problems with no outstanding anomalies. Every thing is within parameters and operating in the green.
I’ve also coded the MS memory leak “fix” into Win10, which has a penchant for removing the leak fix…with each new boot.

The Issue

When I went back on line two weeks ago, Windows sprinted for the latest batch of updates to bring itself into full realization of it's digital potential.

From the first post update re-boot which, by the way, MS gave me no option to refuse, the OS descended into a series of memory leaks that have reduce my system to a steaming POS.

The main bug lies with a “known” issue with Max…well it’s been known for quite some time actually with no fixes in the offing.
I am experiencing a severe memory leak that leaves Max 2015 severely low on resources after only a few minutes of poly bending and animating. Max slowly grinds to a complete halt, requiring a few dozen complete system re-boots a day, just to get any work done. The various memory clean-up scripts written for Max have no effect or success in cleaning up the memory problem.

At this point I’m working with a former member of this forum, searching for a fix but I thought I’d post up here hoping that one or our resident Max gurus may have some experience with repairing the bug.

I’d very much like to get back to actually being productive, rather than torturing my box with continual and lengthy re-boots that wreak havoc on my Local drive.

 

[Jafo]

Simple [ish] fix...uninstall the Windows updates that caused the problem....like all of them since you were running 'in the green' [you should still be able to]...and if you really need the system to remain stable...disconnect it from the internet. Get yourself an el-cheapo that becomes your net mule...

 

[hairyspin]

'Fraid I'm on a much earlier Max version, but are there no answers on Autodesk's support forum? This software costs thousands, so make 'em work for their money. It's not as if you're running a dinosaur version like mine.

 

[AussieMan]

Gordon, not sure if it will help you but after something like 30 system updates of Windows 10 leaving an empty folder on my computer each time I decided to bite the bullet and do a clean install of W10. Since then I only get an minor update of drivers and security files every so often (actually haven't had one now for 2 months).

I don't know your drive structure but I have something like 7.5TB of space on 5 hard drives. My C\. drive is reserved for system related stuff only and the others reserved for my FS, Train Sim, painting and photography stuff.

I know it probably be a pain in the a**e but have you thought of doing something similar? That way you could have more control over Windows updates and maybe stop the memory leaks.

 

[gman5250]

Gordon, not sure if it will help you but after something like 30 system updates of Windows 10 leaving an empty folder on my computer each time I decided to bite the bullet and do a clean install of W10. Since then I only get an minor update of drivers and security files every so often (actually haven't had one now for 2 months).

I don't know your drive structure but I have something like 7.5TB of space on 5 hard drives. My C\. drive is reserved for system related stuff only and the others reserved for my FS, Train Sim, painting and photography stuff.

I know it probably be a pain in the a**e but have you thought of doing something similar? That way you could have more control over Windows updates and maybe stop the memory leaks.

PITA...definitely, but I do have about 8 TB to mess about with, on three drives.

I've looked at your option which seems most logical, but I'm concerned about the aggressive nature of the Windows update process, which could worm it's way back in.

What seems most sensible would be to back up all of my data on my external drive (which I do weekly anyway), buy a new...1 TB SSD, then start with a clean install of either Win7 or Win10. I would leave the computer offline and being tasked for only design work, R&D and beta testing. This option would require a second box for flying and being online.

I do have a second box now suitable for the task, but I would really rather build a new dedicated computer mule/flight sim box with a bit more crunching power. I could task the GTX780 card to the new box and pump up my big box with a GTX1080.

I can probably make that happen when the house sells. In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a fix to the immediate glitch.

 

[spatialpro]

I can't help you with this issue, but I'd just like to thank you enormously for posting about it. I'm a 3DS Max 2015 FS designer and I've occasionally thought about upgrading to Win 10 from Win 7... not now!

 

[hairyspin]

I don't know if this will help, but Max 2016 seems to have a similar problem with some users. One reported a change of video driver in Max cured this:–

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/3ds-max-forum/memory-leak-for-3ds-max-2016/m-p/6018247#M110885

 

[Bjoern]

No issues with Win 10 x64 (always up to date) and Max 2015 x64 here.
Apart from the occasional crash after one texture export from GIMP too many (PNG library error), but that one's fairly understandable.

But I'm generally not working with high poly models in the first place.

Have you tried keeping your stack size down?

 

[MDIvey]

Sorry to hear of your troubles Gordon. Thanks for Heads Up. Using MAX2010 here I and I dithered on whether or not to update my main work machine to Win10 and eventually chose not to for precisely this reason. Glad I didn't. Hope you find a way round the problem without wasting too much time.

Matt

 

[gman5250]

Hairyspin:
"I don't know if this will help, but Max 2016 seems to have a similar problem with some users. One reported a change of video driver in Max cured this:"




I'll give that one a look.

I recall an article some months back that touched on driver updates. As I recall, the article addressed the issue that GMAX and 3DS Max working with FSX and P3D SDK run into an issue with older drivers. It was suggested that the older "generation" drivers were not supported in the SDK.

I was able to restore GMAX go partial functionality in Win10, but have since begun to translate my models i.e. the Milton Shupe F7F into Max format. The idea was that Max would be updated, while GMAX would not.

In the big picture, my NVIDIA drivers in P3D/FSX/Win10 are working extremely well. When I can finally export a beta model into the actual simulator, things hum along very nicely. Currently flying the F2A buffalo while building the VC...it's a joy and the smoothest I've every seen. I have to limit the FPS at 60, even with Matt's high poly radial in his exquisite exterior model...and my increasingly detailed VC.

 

[gman5250]

No issues with Win 10 x64 (always up to date) and Max 2015 x64 here.
Apart from the occasional crash after one texture export from GIMP too many (PNG library error), but that one's fairly understandable.

But I'm generally not working with high poly models in the first place.

Have you tried keeping your stack size down?

I've looked at that.

Today I'm modeling the emergency hand pump for the F2A Buffalo as a separate model to merge into the basic VC. This should be a low stack item with a single texture sheet. I'll see if I run into the leak with the low demand modeling.

Typically I'm working in the VC which consists of the formers and ribs "cage" and the usual other bits that accumulate as the model is developed. This is a much lower demand model than the "interior" model that requires the fuselage, canopy and other necessary bits.

I usually hit the crash when I've edited the basic VC model and merged it into my interior model. Post update, this requires a memory wipe via scripts inside Max, or a complete system re-boot. Prior to the last update I was smashing some huge files like my KRNO airport model or the F7F VC without any memory issues at all.

I did gain some performance when I de-tuned Max to lower performance, graphics and rendering...but that's a Band-aid, not a cure.

 

[gman5250]

Just a follow on Bjoern's comment regarding stack size.

Today, I modeled an emergency hydraulic hand pump for the F2A Buffalo. It was a fairly basic model, low poly compared to a full VC model. The session ran a few hours, working side by side with Photoshop CS6. I got through the whole session without a memory leak lockup.

So...I opened up the VC interior model and she locked up with in a few moves after I had merged the pump model.

It looks like stack memory allocation may have seen some alterations in the new Win10 update. For some reason it has a conflict with my system, although others are using Win10 and Max 2015 64 with no issues at all.

For the short term, and hoping that MS will unravel the bug, I can work with compartmentalized modeling while constructing my more complex airplane models. I have done that all along with my airports i.e. KRNO, which required many layers of modeling to create the composite. The runway lighting alone hit the poly count speed limit and required four separate files.

Just to reiterate...my models did not have this issue prior to the update, so stack memory allocation did not trigger a similar memory pile up.

Thinking out loud, but thought I'd share that info here.

 

[hairyspin]

Also thinking aloud, that doesn't sound like the Max memory leak reported elsewhere when Max would sit swallowing RAM without the user doing a thing! You can work for hours without issue but open another model and it crunches? Check how many materials your problem scene has: I've had models built using merged parts where the material count went through the roof and only wireframe view could handle them. Merging had led to huge numbers of duplicated materials.


Just a thought.

 

[gman5250]

Also thinking aloud, that doesn't sound like the Max memory leak reported elsewhere when Max would sit swallowing RAM without the user doing a thing! You can work for hours without issue but open another model and it crunches? Check how many materials your problem scene has: I've had models built using merged parts where the material count went through the roof and only wireframe view could handle them. Merging had led to huge numbers of duplicated materials.


Just a thought.

I've thought the same thing. I'll give that a look.

I'll try the F7F VC, which has more polys than the Buffalo but no materials assigned yet. If I don't get the crash in there it might well be materials related.
Interesting that this only popped up post update though. The Buffalo VC was fine for the three weeks I worked offline after my move.

Real head scratcher....

 

[Bjoern]

I bet you already tried merging your model into a new, empty scene, didn't you?

This sometimes fixes quirks in model files.

 

[gman5250]

I bet you already tried merging your model into a new, empty scene, didn't you?

This sometimes fixes quirks in model files.

I usually start my session by merging the file, rather than opening an existing.

As a control experiment, I opened a fresh boot of Max, merged the internal VC into a "new" file and opened the materials editor. No textures in the editor, but the UVW maps were still active on the merged model. I removed the UVW mapping using the tools drop down and saved the file out under a new name.

I merged that file into a new clean page...no UVW...no materials and saved that out.

I did gain some memory performance in both...but will eventually hit the leak wall and seize up as before. It did take quite a bit longer though.

The good news is that I can get quite a bit of work done before I hit the wall, so I will say it's an improvement.

 

[hairyspin]

Here's how the materials can get out of hand.

I started with a new, blank scene in Max 2008 and merged a selection of objects from my current project. There's one material on the model's geometry called Harlequin which I use when visually selecting polys for mapping. After this merge there's a Harlequin material in the scene together with the merged objects:–

Then I merged a different selection of objects into this new scene and got another multi-material with a different name, applied to the second selection. All these objects had Harlequin applied in the original model, but now they have Material #25 applied instead!

Material #25 is in fact exactly the same as Harlequin but Max treats them as different and allocates memory and resources to deal with this unnecessary duplicate.

This happens when objects being merged share the same material as objects already in the scene and you just hit "Return" when Max tells you this. The default in Max is for it to rename the material for the objects you're merging to the scene. This is not good.

Once this happens a number of times your materials may have a whole raft of duplicates and the more materials in your scene the quicker the duplicates stack up. They certainly caused a lot of bother when it happened to me.</return></return></return>

 

[gman5250]

Here's how the materials can get out of hand.

I started with a new, blank scene in Max 2008 and merged a selection of objects from my current project. There's one material on the model's geometry called Harlequin which I use when visually selecting polys for mapping. After this merge there's a Harlequin material in the scene together with the merged objects:–

Then I merged a different selection of objects into this new scene and got another multi-material with a different name, applied to the second selection. All these objects had Harlequin applied in the original model, but now they have Material #25 applied instead!

Material #25 is in fact exactly the same as Harlequin but Max treats them as different and allocates memory and resources to deal with this unnecessary duplicate.

This happens when objects being merged share the same material as objects already in the scene and you just hit <Return> <return> <return> <return> when Max tells you this. The default in Max is for it to rename the material for the objects you're merging to the scene. This is not good.

Once this happens a number of times your materials may have a whole raft of duplicates and the more materials in your scene the quicker the duplicates stack up. They certainly caused a lot of bother when it happened to me.</return></return></return>

Ran a scan and on had one duplicate.

My typical work flow uses one materials palette with materials that I update as I add UVW bits. Example, cockpit structure texture begins with the basic seat base and instrument boxes. If I add a strut or brace, I break out the UVW that best suits the design and add that to the existing layer. I export the new UVW map as a template and overlay that on my texture sheet. The sheet fills out over time, but the name never changes.

I avoid the merge scene material option like herpes. Only use existing scene material and update the original texture, bump or spec that I've tweaked.

I try to limit my use of texture sheets to 24 max...the number of available slots in a single materials editor instance.

If I do merge a material it is only when I have built a small part with a dedicated texture sheet that is not in the parent model that I save out for conversion in MCX.

This is turning into a very informative thread...thank you all gentlemen...

 

[gman5250]

I've been working with the suggestions from everyone. I'm seeing improvements, for sure and will integrate these into my workflow.

Tom, I've created a UVW cleared interior model of the F2A. I'll work with that model today...no textures...and see how Max behaves. The textured version of this file has 22 individual textures in the materials editor. Artwork sheets are 2048x2048, except for the usual glass textures etc. which are small guys.

At the same time, I've still got some general oddities since the questionable Win10 update.
When I boot into Win10, I get the usual prompts that take me to my desk top. During boot sequence, desk top appears then goes to black screen for the (long) duration of the full boot. Prior to the update, I would see the desk top but hear the C:drive buzzing and humming through the boot.

BTW...C:drive is standard spinning 2 TB HD. It's clean and shows 0 fragmented.
SSD is reserved for P3D, while FSX SE lives on the spinner.

Once I get through boot things are fine until I open Max. I get the usual Max boot splash screen but a second instance of the program begins to run. This is confirmed in my task manager and processes. (The little secondary menu in the attached).

If I end the task for the anomalous Max window, the program runs fine...until I hit the eventual memory leak crash.

Thoughts welcomed on this one. lol

 

[roger-wilco-66]

The black out during boot up seems a bit suspicious to me. Maybe there's a glitch in the video driver setup? From the 3dsmax side, you could try to switch from the Nitrous driver to the legacy D3D and see what happens. If you can't access the video config from within 3dsmax you can use the external application "change graphics mode" in the 3dsmax folder.

Forgive me a few simple questions, just to have a base line:

Did you install 3dsmax within the UAC structure (c:\programs) ?
Did you update Win10 from Win7/8 or do a fresh installation?
Is it up to date regarding SP / Hotfixes?

I also gather on the net that the Win10 dotnet / c++ libraries are different and can cause problems for all sorts of older applications which can not be circumvented by running in compatibility modes etc.

This thread is quite interesting.
I'm in the process of redesigning my system and switching to Win10, with 3dsmax 2016. There are a few road blocks to be solved, one of them is getting SBuilderX 64 to work und Win10. That one could be solved already by a work around. But a stable 3dsmax is also a main goal of course.


Cheers,
Mark