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Current state of naval / tactical aviation simulation?

Great further info there Pat. Thanks.

Can someone illuminate me as to tunings for TCN and ILS for Javier's Nimitz from the FSXBA please.
I've got it on TACAN on the hud showing distance and placing the small rectangle on the HUD to show bearing and position but I can't tune the ILS to get bars on the HUD for final.

I'm doing something wrong but know not what.
Cheers,
 
Great further info there Pat. Thanks.

For what it's worth, THE reference for carqual is P-1211. It can be downloaded at CNATRA. There is only one USN way and, and contrary to most youtubers, DCS mods, and other "verbal histories", P-1211 is the USN way.
 
For what it's worth, THE reference for carqual is P-1211. It can be downloaded at CNATRA. There is only one USN way and, and contrary to most youtubers, DCS mods, and other "verbal histories", P-1211 is the USN way.


Nice one Henry.
Downloaded and studying.
Salute.

Link for those concerned: https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-1211.pdf

Our original OP asked what the current state of naval/ tactical aviation simulation is;

I'd say it's bloody brilliant.
 
The basics in that pub for a successful sim carrier pilot, practice then the “fleet SH breaks” will come later.
 
I've got it on TACAN on the hud showing distance and placing the small rectangle on the HUD to show bearing and position but I can't tune the ILS to get bars on the HUD for final.

I'm doing something wrong but know not what.
Call up the HUD Control panel, SHft+2. Click the ILS button, upper right area or the 4 square buttons near the top. If the top of the button is lit, the ILS bars are active. The bars only show if you are within 15 nmi. and 15° of the "runway" heading.

I suspect you haven't met one, or both, of the requirements. Try taking an orbit of the boat, about 1000' AGL, 10 nmi. You will see when they appear as you come around the aft of the boat. Or pick your favorite airport, that has an ILS system, tune it in, and do the same. You'll see the bars as you cross the 15° boundary to the runway heading.
Generally, usually, most of the time, the Glideslope bar will be present, or last longer, than the azimuth indication. IOW: You'll see the horizontal bar before, and longer, than the vertical one. Not a lot, but some.

It's what *I* use as a reference to when to make the break turn when passing the boat. When both bars vanish off the HUD, I bank-n-yank :loyal:
Is it the "right" way? I doubt it, but it works great for me. Seems to set up distances just right for making a relatively decent pass.
Just make sure that as you pass the boat, you're on the BRC heading, and at the correct distance to the starboard of the boat.
You should have the hook down when you pass, roughly, 5 nmi. as you approach, and the Carrier Bypass switch in Carrier, not Field.
Antiskid Switch OFF for ops on the boat, ON for shore based ops. It actually works on the FSXBA Hornet. Only plane I've seen so far.

Hope this helps a little...
Pat☺
 
Our original OP asked what the current state of naval/ tactical aviation simulation is;

I'd say it's bloody brilliant.

I'm inclined to agree! For now I'm practicing laps around the boat with the FSXBA Hornet, gonna grab the VRS Rhino + Tacpack next week (that pesky budget thing), then tune up AAR and weapons deployment, then start looking at @war (which I'll download now in case that site disappears). That oughta keep me busy for... A long time, given how busy summer is gonna be ;-). I'm really intrigued by the multi-player aspect of all this too; is joining a virtual squadron like the aforementioned USNVA (I really like your philosophy) the best way to try out multi-player at first, or does VRS etc have MP servers to try out?
 
How about Flap scheduling/ Trim on approach Pat?

To what extent do the Auto Flaps extend and Auto Trim take care of things? It's bothering me that I end up very nose down on approach.
 
Comms, I'm not too bad - I've had a radio license as a sailor for many years and as a rw pilot for a few - so, know brevity is the soul of being understood fast.

Formation? - Ummm - that's another matter, I'm either too quick; and overshoot, or too slow; and under achieve required speed and alt. It really is bloody difficult to match speed with 8 tons of metal travelling at 550 KIAS less than 15 feet away from you at 16 thou.

Any hints very gratefully received.

Ganter - Not sure if you got any hints but here is the first few you need:

1) All formation flying relies on the lead aircraft, lead is lead and worries about what and where to etc, everybody else just follows in formation.
2) All formation ops require a thorough pre-flight briefing process to understand what the plan or objectives are, so everybody is working from the same sheet music.
3) Lead can be exchanged in flight but generally is not unless the LEAD has had to bug out or some other issue.
4) What formation is going to be flown? is critical, line astern (High or low), Echelon left or right, diamond, box, etc and is generally decided in advance but it can be changed in flight LEAD makes the call and everyone then follows in sequence. So there is another clue in formation everyone has a number and a slot.
5) LEAD makes the radio calls to ground etc. and with brief phrases will convey to the rest of the formation any changes, left right etc. Everyone else just follows.

So everyone else in the formation but the lead just follows so you know what your doing, where your going and now all you have to do is concentrate of keeping position. If you cannot you bugout and call it and go a specific direction already predetermine so you do not run into anyone and they do not run into you.

NOW actually flying a formation requires a lot of practise. The clues are all visual that you use and are dependant on aircraft type so you will align yourself on the lead aircraft in a particular way using sections of the aircraft to keep a perspective and position. What they are is dependant on the particular aircraft that make up the formation. if you look at PHANTOM TWEAKS posts re the F-18 you will see that there are very specific views of the aircraft that you have to keep aligned at all times. Each aircraft is different and will have a different point or points generally though this will be the rear quarter, such as keeping the elevator tip and fin top and or wing tip in a particular alignment or picture perspective.


All this is also dependant on power control, if your not lead you will be forever changing power and attitude to keep in the slot. You will always be using more power to keep up, if you drop back unintentionally everyone behind you has to drop back. In other words you only have eyes for the aircraft you follow and you watch it like a hawk, LEAD does the nav, the radios and makes the calls. In the RW if your not close and correct or sloppy you run the real risk of hitting slipstreams and vortex turbulence which could ruin your day real fast. Doing it at night and in the crap is a whole other ball game best left for another day.

That is about all I can tell you at the moment it is practise, practise, practise, including formation take-offs and landings. You don't even start formation flying in the military until you have got a lot of time up, but that said, they start em early at advanced flight training but it is elementary formation flight and simple like a line astern or echelon. That said not everybody can be a Blue Angel etc and that is a real ask.

I can see no reason why proper formation flying should be an issue in FSX visually. I would suggest that you get the little freeware program that sets up a formation based on your aircraft library and having a go at it, it will be pretty tame compared to multi-player stuff but it is the best place to start from my perspective. Start with something slow and work up as you get a handle on it. That formation AI program will let you do that over and over again. I guess you need to be confident and competent in the sim handling department already but at least there is the pause button if you stuff it up. I would not do the Tanker stuff until you happy with your general handling and flying close up.

And the reason you fly formation, well it is not because it is pretty it is because it is a really good way of getting a whole lot of aircraft in one bunch from A to B.

P.S - I did it, did a lot of it once, hated every minute of it, still do, something about being up close like that in real life I did not find exciting, formation aerobatics is about the only time I liked it a little bit. Something satisfying about doing an aeros routine in formation. Same rule still applies, lead calls it you just follow. I find life is a lot more peaceful and less fraught on your lonesome in an aeroplane unless of course they are shooting at you then it is not so exciting at all.

As for carrier stuff, never done it but IMHO these guys know their stuff and then some it takes a lot of skill to turn an F18 into a STOL arrival using a cable as a brake in a pitching sea day or night! Probably would never have done it, one my country had no carriers and two I get seasick!
 
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Ganter and any others interested, I dug around in my bits and pieces and dodgy archives and found a couple of actual pics taken in flight from the formation lead aircraft. I also found some old instructor brief sheets for formation training but they would not be all that helpful as they need an explantion but they do cover the basics. If interested I probably can zip em up and send them to those interested.

This is the best shot, this is of RAAF CT-4s doing formation practise. The aeroplane is a CT-4B the RAAF's basic or elementary flight trainer and still is until the end of 2019 when it will be retired and replaced by the PC-21.

Note the following:

The descending relationship of the line of aircraft.
They are all keeping the same fixed relative position - see the tail positions of all of them.
No 2 is watching No 1 who took the photo note what he only has eyes for - yep NO 1.
They are using the aft rudder-elevator triangulation point as a point of reference.
You can be below or above in formation but not level, even though from a ground perspective it may look like that, the reason is you need to keep out of the preceding aircraft's turbulence, rule of joining is SLOT IN AND UP at the same time. Why it is easier to slow down in a climb than going down in a descent. You need to carry more power and speed to join and it is better to back off the power and slow to slot in and up and then adjust to keep it there, if you don't then the deviations in you power control can get out of hand and messy very quickly.

If NO 2 had to bug out he would drop down and break right. The others would then move up and slot in. No 2 would rejoin as no 4. If that happens generally you will have done a grand tour and the formation will be a long way away and higher than when you left it it, takes a lot of acceleration (power) and scanning to get it back again. Remember no matter what the aeroplane, once they are all the same the speed and power is relative everybody is doing the same etc. So your thought of speed or power advantage disappears very quickly. The only time this is a tough gig to do is when they are all different aeroplanes as a rule you will put the slowest first and the faster types behind, which you will have noticed from any photographs of formations of different aeroplanes.

Oh why are they are also being flown from the right hand seat - why? they are QFI's not students.

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Fantastic info there thank you BendyFlyer.

I was just thinking - wouldn't it be great if some very bright person could come along and modify one of the J's Nimitz's configurations to actually launch 6 of the jets - fly a formation sortie (or general mayhem sortie) for twenty minutes and then come back in and trap.

Better still if it could be triggered within the AI Carriers menu and options selected such as: Type of Sortie, No. of Jets in sortie, Alt + KIAS, Formation type, Duration of sortie, Random factors, etc.

Go to, go to!

I'd pay for something like that.
 
I agree wit hBendy re formation flying. problem is, in any fltsim, the throttle / engine response and throttle angle positioning causes some real problems, depending on what plane it is. in real life, formation flying is not too hard to learn with regard to throttle control; smooth, small corrections help, and are learned reasonably quickly because of good engine response to small changes. That is not the case with many FS planes in my opinion.

I started learning form in 2-plane after basic instrument training in the T-2A. We worked up to 4-plane. In advanced, we worked on 2 and 4-plane at night. Form is so pervasive in the military that you can almost do it in your sleep, though it requires a lot of work. Try being number 4 in Parade echelon in a descent, and the lead signals for popping the speed brakes --- happens all the time, and it works out.
 
Fantastic info there thank you BendyFlyer.

I was just thinking - wouldn't it be great if some very bright person could come along and modify one of the J's Nimitz's configurations to actually launch 6 of the jets - fly a formation sortie (or general mayhem sortie) for twenty minutes and then come back in and trap.

Better still if it could be triggered within the AI Carriers menu and options selected such as: Type of Sortie, No. of Jets in sortie, Alt + KIAS, Formation type, Duration of sortie, Random factors, etc.

Go to, go to!

I'd pay for something like that.

get your wallet out... this is something we do everyday... with hornets, tomcats phantoms and everything else with a hook
 
get your wallet out... this is something we do everyday... with hornets, tomcats phantoms and everything else with a hook

It would be something that would allow you to practise these manoeuvres and procs before doing it for real with Stinger and his boys! :encouragement:

Because, quite frankly - with my formation flying (Pacific Airlines A321 as Lead, and my well dodgy catting and trapping in the F/A-18, as the last couple of days have shown; I'm not ready for the real thing.

One day I will be - and then I'll come knocking at the USNVA ready room - if they'll have me.
 
Just in case anyone is interested, The FSX BA Hornet v18.3 has been put out. One thing it includes, along with several very nice improvements, is at least 6 new liveries, for a total of 86!

The write up on the new version is here: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,16514.msg124198.html#msg124198

The actual download link is here: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,16514.msg117675.html#msg117675
That's post #1 of the thread. It's been updated to essentially show what my first link showed. The DL Link is 1/2 way down the post, as before.

I suggest removing v18.2 before you install the v18.3 . You don't have to, however. If you don't, you'll have to differentiate the two versions in their respective aircraft.cfg's. Just add a letter, number, whatever you choose to one of them, in the Title= line of the [fltsim.X], and place the same character(s) on the ui_variation= line.

Like on the title=FA-18C - Blue Angels Test 1 line, you could add v18.3, thus: title=FA-18C - Blue Angels Test 1 v18.3. Then copy the same thing to the line ui_variation="Blue Angels Test 1" thus: ui_variation="Blue Angels Test 1 v18.3 " .

This will need to be done for every [fltsim.X] section of the plane's aircraft.cfg, or the sim will get upset and pop error's up when you load up.
I do something like this when I want to compare different versions, so I can keep track of which is which as I go.

This is an ongoing process. I have no idea when Jimi and the team will decide it's as "perfect" as it gets, and stop making updates.

By the way, all these versions from the v17... on up are all TacPac enabled. If you like using that sort of thing. I don't have TacPac, so I can't report on it, in comparison to, say, the VRS Superbug. However, every real-world pilot whose tried both say there's just no comparison in the FCS and FDE's. The FSX BA versions take the cake all the way. The paints aint bad, either :D

Enjoy!
Pat☺
 
I agree wit hBendy re formation flying. problem is, in any fltsim, the throttle / engine response and throttle angle positioning causes some real problems, depending on what plane it is. in real life, formation flying is not too hard to learn with regard to throttle control; smooth, small corrections help, and are learned reasonably quickly because of good engine response to small changes. That is not the case with many FS planes in my opinion.

I started learning form in 2-plane after basic instrument training in the T-2A. We worked up to 4-plane. In advanced, we worked on 2 and 4-plane at night. Form is so pervasive in the military that you can almost do it in your sleep, though it requires a lot of work. Try being number 4 in Parade echelon in a descent, and the lead signals for popping the speed brakes --- happens all the time, and it works out.

Thanks Mike. I've noticed this in the sim - for example; the throttle response in the SSW AV-8B (with that big old Pegasus strapped to your back) is near on instantaneous - whereas with other fast jets - the default FA/-18 for example can be very slow - or indeed, provide a very unrealistic response - or even worse - unpredictable.

Thank you for your notes - appreciated.
 
Just in case anyone is interested, The FSX BA Hornet v18.3 has been put out. One thing it includes, along with several very nice improvements, is at least 6 new liveries, for a total of 86!

The write up on the new version is here: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,16514.msg124198.html#msg124198

The actual download link is here: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,16514.msg117675.html#msg117675
That's post #1 of the thread. It's been updated to essentially show what my first link showed. The DL Link is 1/2 way down the post, as before.

I suggest removing v18.2 before you install the v18.3 . You don't have to, however. If you don't, you'll have to differentiate the two versions in their respective aircraft.cfg's. Just add a letter, number, whatever you choose to one of them, in the Title= line of the [fltsim.X], and place the same character(s) on the ui_variation= line.

Like on the title=FA-18C - Blue Angels Test 1 line, you could add v18.3, thus: title=FA-18C - Blue Angels Test 1 v18.3. Then copy the same thing to the line ui_variation="Blue Angels Test 1" thus: ui_variation="Blue Angels Test 1 v18.3 " .

This will need to be done for every [fltsim.X] section of the plane's aircraft.cfg, or the sim will get upset and pop error's up when you load up.
I do something like this when I want to compare different versions, so I can keep track of which is which as I go.

This is an ongoing process. I have no idea when Jimi and the team will decide it's as "perfect" as it gets, and stop making updates.

By the way, all these versions from the v17... on up are all TacPac enabled. If you like using that sort of thing. I don't have TacPac, so I can't report on it, in comparison to, say, the VRS Superbug. However, every real-world pilot whose tried both say there's just no comparison in the FCS and FDE's. The FSX BA versions take the cake all the way. The paints aint bad, either :D

Enjoy!
Pat☺

Tried 18.3 today Pat.
Looks and flies great - I d/l the FSX version.
A couple of things that still need doing; The Tacan ain't tuning properly - it's scattering the frequency and not displaying in the HUD as dis and bearing and the Radar can't select targets yet - both frustrating. The APU run up sounds amazing. The FCS is awesome.
This bird is fantastic. I even managed to trap it three times in a row - with stabilised approaches (which is big for me!).

What a machine.

In fact, I'm off in it now - we're CAVOK here on the south coast of England - no Tacan required to find the big ship.

Byeeeee!
 
... However, every real-world pilot whose tried both say there's just no comparison in the FCS and FDE's. The FSX BA versions take the cake all the way. The paints aint bad, either :D

Enjoy!
Pat☺

To be fair, the baby and super hornets aren't exactly comparable airframes, and from what I've read, the FCS and CAS fly-by-wire is different as well. I wouldn't see any reason to expect them to fly the same in real life, much less in a desktop sim. I would love to read an actual naval aviator's review of either model but can't find one. It would be really awesome to find a guy who's flown both to review both, but that's probably asking too much.

That said, I've been greatly enjoying the FSXBA model, I in no way mean to bash it. I think I'm up to about 13,000 hours of (RW) jet time now, and while I've never flown a tactical jet, the FSXBA hornet certainly "feels" right, from a pitch/power/AoA perspective. You guys have done some great work!
 
How about Flap scheduling/ Trim on approach Pat?

To what extent do the Auto Flaps extend and Auto Trim take care of things? It's bothering me that I end up very nose down on approach.
As to Flaps scheduling: when in the break, as the airspeed drops below 250 KIAS, go to Flaps FULL, and drop the gear. This tells the system that you want Powered Approach (PA) mode in the FCS. It will then set the Pitch Trim to 8.1 as you approach On-Speed. You can see it on the HUD as it happens, right side, below the Altitude readout box.
If you're making a long straight-in approach, slow to 250 KIAS by going to idle and popping the speed brake. From there, it's all the same. Flaps FULL, gear down.

When you're in UA (Up and Away mode), the FCS controls the flaps for you. If you slow, you can watch the flaps respond. I flown a pass at 90 KIAS, and the flaps were full down, LEX and Trailing Edge both. The reason you put the Flaps Full when on an approach is to signal the system to go to PA mode. If you're IN PA mode and speed up, the flaps and pitch trim will respond accordingly. If you slow back down, again they will respond properly.

Bear in mind, on a bounce, sometimes the pitch trim will reset to take off mode, or 7.3° Nose up. You need to manually reset it to 8.1 in that case. You can make the current trim setting appear on the HUD by just giving the trim a quick tap, up or down. Then you can adjust as needed. They are working to fix that.

Did you get the TACAN setup figured out? The ILS Bars not appearing?

Also, remember when taking off, to put Flaps HALF, and press the Launch Trim button on the Rudder Trim Knob, Left side, just aft the throttles. As you accelerate down the runway, the plane will rotate to capture the correct attitude for you. After that, put the gear and flaps up, and fly away. Same for launching off the boat. Same switchology. The pitch trim will be adjusted for the plane's current weight and wind sensed. On the cat shot, when the launch bar raises (go to 100% throttles so the Launch Bar light extinguishes when ready to launch) after you clear the boat, the plane will rotate to and capture the correct attitude for you. Hands off the throttle and stick until it settles in the right attitude, then fly away normally. Just like the real plane. No touchy the controls during the cat shot! The real pilots reach up and grab the two "towel racks" on the canopy bow after the salute to the cat officer. If you need to select AB during or right after the cat shot, the throttles are normally held and properly operated, but once again, not the stick.

Does all this help a little?

Mr. Stearmandriver,
You'd have to look back through a a LOT of PMs between me, Jimi, and the pilots he has on his team. They are credited in the aircraft.cfg for the plane. I don't promise they will respond to a "stranger" though. It took me a long time to work my way into the "group", and get them to talk to me at all...

Have fun with it everyone!
Pat☺
 
I apologize for the double post, but when I go to Edit Post, to try and delete one, it shows no text and won't allow.

Any help from a mod please? The first post should go away...
Pat☺
 
Brilliant info Pat - again, many thanks.

With TACAN I can get a sweet lock on Javier's Nimitz and get ILS bars in v. 17.1.3 but in v.18.3 using the same procedure doesn't result in a successful tuning. Is it still work in progress?
 
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