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The Staff of SOH
Thursday, the 4th of June, 1942
- Thread starter PRB
- Start date
Wing_Z
Charter Member 2011
Y'know, the search engines are amazing!
I wasn't sure, so I dropped the thread title into Google, which immediately lit up
http://www.microworks.net/PACIFIC/battles/midway.htm
which is an interesting read.
I didn't realise one of the major results was the capture of an intact Zero, leading to its analysis, and eventual defeat by Hellcat.
I wasn't sure, so I dropped the thread title into Google, which immediately lit up
http://www.microworks.net/PACIFIC/battles/midway.htm
which is an interesting read.
I didn't realise one of the major results was the capture of an intact Zero, leading to its analysis, and eventual defeat by Hellcat.
What most people don't realize about the battle of Midway was that before the SBD's arrived over the Japanese carriers, the Americans had lost 100 planes without causing any damage to the Japanese fleet. 5 minutes after the SBD's arrived, the course of the war had been turned.
Duckie
SOH-CM-2024
And what too often is overlooked is that through the loss of the courageous and gallant crews of those 100 aircraft (most were Douglas TBD Devastator bombers) whose wave top attacks caused the Japanese fleet gunners to train low for theses wave topping threats, and the Japanese air CAP to drop from their lofty perch to better defend their ships, allowed the first waves of SBDs to come in practically unnoticed and certainly without meaningful challenge from the Japanese top cover that was now both getting low on fuel and clawing for altitude to try and stem the new high altitude threat. By the time the AA gun directors spotted those first SBDs, they had already pushed over, many having already released their lethal cargo.
The devastating (no pun intended!) torpedo bomber losses in their unsuccessful attacks (in terms of actual direct damage inflicted) actually contributed significantly to the success of the dive bomber attacks in that they caused the Japanese defenses to be out of place and initially unprepared to defend against the new high altitude threat.
Brave men, all. :USA-flag:
LDF
Duckie
SOH-CM-2024
Thanks Mud. Another good historical read of the battle is "Incredible Victory: The Battle of Midway" by Walter Lord.
Duckie
In Shattered Sword author Jonathan Parshall really did some outstanding research regarding Japanese carrier ops. His narrative and descriptions put you right on the flight deck. Walter Lord's book is excellent, but IMHO Sword is now the definitive Midway book. A softbound edition came out this past year so it's an affordable addition to anybody's library.
Personally I thought you were refering to the death of SS Obergruppefuhrer Richard Heydrich in Prague.
Perhaps it didn't turn the war, but it was definitely good news.
The brave men who tried to kill him could not oversee the consequences of their actions. On 10 June 1942 the complete population of the Czech village Lidice was killed as revenge.
Huub
Perhaps it didn't turn the war, but it was definitely good news.
The brave men who tried to kill him could not oversee the consequences of their actions. On 10 June 1942 the complete population of the Czech village Lidice was killed as revenge.
Huub
Midway has been written about a lot. It’s such an interesting battle to study. H.P. Willmott, in his book The Barrier and the Javelin, covers Coral Sea and Midway together over a few chapters and has a very interesting analysis, including the interesting fact that the US fleet was actually not outnumbered at the point of contact. With the IJN forces so spread out doing various different things, the forces that actually fought the battle of 4-6 June were pretty evenly matched.
Martin Caidin, in his book “The Ragged Rugged Warriors” has a chapter on the Army B-26 torpedo attack and is one of the most riveting and incredible stories of bravery under fire that I’ve ever read.
And John Lundstrom, in The First Team, tells an unbelievable tale of LCDR. John Thatch and his young wingman, ENS Robert Dibb over the Japanese fleet, employing the famous “Thatch Weave” for the first time in combat. Developed by Thatch and O’Hare in the Coral Sea, this idea of theirs hadn’t made it’s way around the fleet yet, and on the morning of the 4th of June, Thatch only had time to briefly discuss it with Dibb. “Here’s what we’re gonna do if we get outnumbered by Zeros…” And when the time came, he had a heck of a time hand signaling to Dibb to “get out there… lets do what I said this morning…!!!!” Dibb finally got the message, and for the next hour they weaved their stubby Wildcats over the IJN carriers, surrounded by A6Ms of the Japanese CAP.
Amazing stuff!
Martin Caidin, in his book “The Ragged Rugged Warriors” has a chapter on the Army B-26 torpedo attack and is one of the most riveting and incredible stories of bravery under fire that I’ve ever read.
And John Lundstrom, in The First Team, tells an unbelievable tale of LCDR. John Thatch and his young wingman, ENS Robert Dibb over the Japanese fleet, employing the famous “Thatch Weave” for the first time in combat. Developed by Thatch and O’Hare in the Coral Sea, this idea of theirs hadn’t made it’s way around the fleet yet, and on the morning of the 4th of June, Thatch only had time to briefly discuss it with Dibb. “Here’s what we’re gonna do if we get outnumbered by Zeros…” And when the time came, he had a heck of a time hand signaling to Dibb to “get out there… lets do what I said this morning…!!!!” Dibb finally got the message, and for the next hour they weaved their stubby Wildcats over the IJN carriers, surrounded by A6Ms of the Japanese CAP.
Amazing stuff!
Duckie
SOH-CM-2024
It was definately a very fasinating engagement with all the good luck, bad luck and dumb luck on all sides that conspired to produce that "perfect storm" of battle.
Another interesting read for the pure historical aspect from the Japanese point of view is "A Battle History of the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1941-1945".
I read that years ago. I might have to dust that one off and take another run through it this weekend!
Duckie
Another interesting read for the pure historical aspect from the Japanese point of view is "A Battle History of the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1941-1945".
I read that years ago. I might have to dust that one off and take another run through it this weekend!
Duckie
Since we're on Midway here, let me again recommend A Dawn Like Thunder: The True Story of Torpedo Squadron Eight by Robert J. Mrazek. I work at Barnes & Noble, but not for commission. 
It's just a darn good read.
One of the main characters in the story is Ensign Bert Earnest who was the only pilot of VT-8's Midway-based TBF detachment to get his plane back after the AM attack on June 4. Bert retired as a Captain and lives here in Virginia Beach, still hangin' in at age 92.
It's just a darn good read.One of the main characters in the story is Ensign Bert Earnest who was the only pilot of VT-8's Midway-based TBF detachment to get his plane back after the AM attack on June 4. Bert retired as a Captain and lives here in Virginia Beach, still hangin' in at age 92.
Mick
SOH-CM-2025
"The First Team" is the definitive source on the American side at Midway.
"Shattered Sword" is the definitive source on the Japanese side.
The authors of "Sword" drew heavily on "The First Team" for their information on American activities, and John Lundstrom (author of "The First Team") was a cooperative and major reference source for "Sword."
"Shattered Sword" corrects a lot of major misconceptions that were propagated by earlier books, including "Miracle at Midway" and "Incredible Victory."
The authors of "Sword" show that the US victory at Midway was neither incredible nor a miracle; they demonstrate that the Japanese plan was so poorly conceived and executed that the Japanese had no real chance from the beginning. The only way they could've avoided defeat was if the Americans hadn't showed up.
All earlier works on Midway took most or all of their information about the Japanese side from Mitsuo Fuchida's "The Battle That Doomed Japan." The authors of those works all accepted Fuchida's book as an authoritative history, not understanding that it was nothing of the sort.
Japanese historians knew all along that Fuchida's book was one of a large genre of semi-fictional tales published in Japan during the immediate post-war years by surviving officers. They were feel-good books intended to make the Japanese public feel proud of the great effort and bravery that their military exhibited in defeat. Their theme was, "We were brave, we were daring, we were strong, we were smart, and if it wasn't for a few bad breaks we might've won." Fact is, while they were indeed brave and daring, they weren't nearly as strong as their leaders told them they were, they didn't fight smart, and they screwed up so badly that even if they'd gotten every possible good break, they never had a good chance of winning that battle and they never had a prayer of winning the war.
Apparently because of the language issue, Japanese historians never realized that their American counterparts were taking Fuchida seriously until more than half a century after the war! They mostly didn't even realize that Fuchida's book had been translated into English, since that genre of books generally wasn't translated or published outside of Japan.
"Sword" debunks many long-held myths about Midway. We've believed for years the dramatic image of the SBDs dropping on the IJN carriers with their decks full of fueled and armed aircraft, just as they started to launch their strikes. Fuchida described it so dramatically! In fact, none of the Japanese carriers had planes on deck, and numerous US Navy combat reports noted their empty decks. But everyone was fixated on Fuchida's dramatic but fictional rendition.
Likewise, we're all read about how the doomed torpedo squadrons drew the Japanese CAP down to wavetop height, allowing the SBDs to come along unmolested above. Fuchida told it like that, but in fact the Japanese had plenty of time to set up a high CAP after the torpedo attacks and before the dive bombers arrived. They just did such a lousy job of managing their CAP assets that they didn't get it done.
Fuchida tells of the Japanese carriers reeling under bomb hit after bomb hit, finally sinking after taking more hits than any ship could possibly survive. He told it so well that American historians failed to note the combat reports. In fact one of the carriers was sunk by a single hit, but Fuchida wasn't about to tell his readers that some of those ships might've been saved if the Japanese Navy wasn't so incompetent at damage control.
Previous writers have made much of the great discrepancy in forces between the Japanese and the Americans, but "Sword" points out that the Japanese plan had their forces so scattered that at the point of contact the two navies were about evenly matched, and the Japanese reserve forces were so far away that they had no possibility of getting into the fight.
"Sword" challenges many other long-held ideas about Midway, and it does a good job of substantiating its challenges. Like "The First Team," it's a must-read for anyone who's interested in Midway and the early Pacific war.
"Shattered Sword" is the definitive source on the Japanese side.
The authors of "Sword" drew heavily on "The First Team" for their information on American activities, and John Lundstrom (author of "The First Team") was a cooperative and major reference source for "Sword."
"Shattered Sword" corrects a lot of major misconceptions that were propagated by earlier books, including "Miracle at Midway" and "Incredible Victory."
The authors of "Sword" show that the US victory at Midway was neither incredible nor a miracle; they demonstrate that the Japanese plan was so poorly conceived and executed that the Japanese had no real chance from the beginning. The only way they could've avoided defeat was if the Americans hadn't showed up.
All earlier works on Midway took most or all of their information about the Japanese side from Mitsuo Fuchida's "The Battle That Doomed Japan." The authors of those works all accepted Fuchida's book as an authoritative history, not understanding that it was nothing of the sort.
Japanese historians knew all along that Fuchida's book was one of a large genre of semi-fictional tales published in Japan during the immediate post-war years by surviving officers. They were feel-good books intended to make the Japanese public feel proud of the great effort and bravery that their military exhibited in defeat. Their theme was, "We were brave, we were daring, we were strong, we were smart, and if it wasn't for a few bad breaks we might've won." Fact is, while they were indeed brave and daring, they weren't nearly as strong as their leaders told them they were, they didn't fight smart, and they screwed up so badly that even if they'd gotten every possible good break, they never had a good chance of winning that battle and they never had a prayer of winning the war.
Apparently because of the language issue, Japanese historians never realized that their American counterparts were taking Fuchida seriously until more than half a century after the war! They mostly didn't even realize that Fuchida's book had been translated into English, since that genre of books generally wasn't translated or published outside of Japan.
"Sword" debunks many long-held myths about Midway. We've believed for years the dramatic image of the SBDs dropping on the IJN carriers with their decks full of fueled and armed aircraft, just as they started to launch their strikes. Fuchida described it so dramatically! In fact, none of the Japanese carriers had planes on deck, and numerous US Navy combat reports noted their empty decks. But everyone was fixated on Fuchida's dramatic but fictional rendition.
Likewise, we're all read about how the doomed torpedo squadrons drew the Japanese CAP down to wavetop height, allowing the SBDs to come along unmolested above. Fuchida told it like that, but in fact the Japanese had plenty of time to set up a high CAP after the torpedo attacks and before the dive bombers arrived. They just did such a lousy job of managing their CAP assets that they didn't get it done.
Fuchida tells of the Japanese carriers reeling under bomb hit after bomb hit, finally sinking after taking more hits than any ship could possibly survive. He told it so well that American historians failed to note the combat reports. In fact one of the carriers was sunk by a single hit, but Fuchida wasn't about to tell his readers that some of those ships might've been saved if the Japanese Navy wasn't so incompetent at damage control.
Previous writers have made much of the great discrepancy in forces between the Japanese and the Americans, but "Sword" points out that the Japanese plan had their forces so scattered that at the point of contact the two navies were about evenly matched, and the Japanese reserve forces were so far away that they had no possibility of getting into the fight.
"Sword" challenges many other long-held ideas about Midway, and it does a good job of substantiating its challenges. Like "The First Team," it's a must-read for anyone who's interested in Midway and the early Pacific war.
brad kaste
Charter Member
"A Dawn Like Thunder"
A double thumbs up to a well crafted and researched book.
Tarps,.........you surely hit the nail on the head. "A Dawn Like Thunder:The True Story of Torpedo Squadron Eight" by Robert J. Mrazek is a pure gem. The only disappointing part of the book was when it had to end. The author writes as if he's speaking directly to you....as if he was writing into a personal journal. What I found so informative was what other campaigns Torpedo 8 Squadron participated in after the Battle of Midway.Since we're on Midway here, let me again recommend A Dawn Like Thunder: The True Story of Torpedo Squadron Eight by Robert J. Mrazek. I work at Barnes & Noble, but not for commission.
One of the main characters in the story is Ensign Bert Earnest who was the only pilot of VT-8's Midway-based TBF detachment to get his plane back after the AM attack on June 4. Bert retired as a Captain and lives here in Virginia Beach, still hangin' in at age 92.
A double thumbs up to a well crafted and researched book.
casey jones
Charter Member
In A Dawn Like Thunder it reveals that the Air Group Commander led the Hornet planes in the wrong direction!!!
Casey
Casey
Mick
SOH-CM-2025
Well, that's not the only source to mention it; that's been well known for decades.
Neither side did everything right that day. A lot of that was because of spotty intelligence. Nobody had the complete picture, and both sides had to engage in considerable guesswork.
One might fairly say that the Americans did well at gathering and interpreting information, while the Japanese did a lousy job of it. Still, the Americans didn't know everything, and the fog of war was thick on both sides.