whats the point

[heywooood]

yeah man I cant say anything negative about anyone who develops addons for FSX...the customer base can be quite difficult to please, even as they forgive M/S for putting a half backed product like FSX on the market.

If I'm going to pay for something for FSX - its going to be something I've looked at for a long time, read reviews and forums about, seen endless screenshots of, to the point that I know what I'm getting warts and all.

It amazes me what some of these developer / artists can do within the less than friendly confines of FSX code - and it amazes me that they are all willing to do it, knowing the relative demands of many of us customers

There's only one place where everything is perfect...and I'm in no hurry to get there just yet, besides - they prolly wont let me in when I do...everybody will just roll their eyes and look at their feet...

awkward

 

[napamule]

Ticket

hey,
They will let you in-but only if you have FSX Acceleration and TONS of payware to go with it-but NO support is (FOREVER?) allowed (hehe).
Chuck B
Napamule

PS: I don't own one STICK of payware and never will.

 

[RCAF_Gunner]

Interesting thread.

I can understand people not wanting to use Facebook. I don't like the way the settings change all the time either but I do use it sparingly ~ mostly to keep in touch with family in other parts of the country. However, I can say from personal experience even if you do use Facebook as a support vehicle there's no assurance your questions will be answered.

My philosophy is the old "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me". In other words, if I get poor service from a payware vendor I won't buy from them again even if I like their work. It's not worth the aggravation.

I think there are some really good payware teams/outfits still around and I sincerely hope they continue to be successful because I'm looking forward to continuing to be one their customers.

Cheers,
Rick

 

[peter12213]

I have to say I know alot of you don't like/use Facebook but it really is worth joining, the fact you can have realtime conversations with developers and just seeing what they are really like as people really is a good thing!

 

[guzler]

Guys,

There is a danger here to generalise and tar all developers with the same brush. Whilst there are very valid reasons for this thread, I've made many purchases and become a loyal customer due to the personal support I've recieved. Gary at UK2000, Fly Tampa, Ultimate Traffic are a few where I've had issues on installation or simply lost my installation key and had great follow up and support through their websites and there are more. Hopefully, this thread remains on a positive keel and helps to bridge some gaps which are present. I've run a small business and when you're busy being 'the technician' in it, having constructive feedback is useful to help you keep a holistic picture of how you are performing on your customer service as well as all the other aspects that you have to be in control of. Deconstructive critisism doesn't really help anyone as we've seen too many times.

So, I raise a glass to constructive feedback that creates a win/win outcome for developers & flight sim enthusiasts alike

Neil

 

[AndyG43]

Guys,

There is a danger here to generalise and tar all developers with the same brush. Whilst there are very valid reasons for this thread, I've made many purchases and become a loyal customer due to the personal support I've recieved. Gary at UK2000, Fly Tampa, Ultimate Traffic are a few where I've had issues on installation or simply lost my installation key and had great follow up and support through their websites and there are more. Hopefully, this thread remains on a positive keel and helps to bridge some gaps which are present. I've run a small business and when you're busy being 'the technician' in it, having constructive feedback is useful to help you keep a holistic picture of how you are performing on your customer service as well as all the other aspects that you have to be in control of. Deconstructive critisism doesn't really help anyone as we've seen too many times.

So, I raise a glass to constructive feedback that creates a win/win outcome for developers & flight sim enthusiasts alike

Neil

Fair comment Neil, even though the Mods have requested we don't "name & shame" the bad, I think it is right to acknowledge the good; I've already commented on Razbam, and the support from freeware modellers - I'll echo your praise of Gary (he has always gone above & beyond), but would like to add Aeroplane Heaven and the guys at Just Flight to my personal list. Heres to to you guys.

heywooood, I accept your point about customers being difficult, I have over 30 years experience in sales & customer services, so know what a pita some people can be; there was a recent post here at SOH where somebody was trying to locate a couple of aircraft, when he had received no responses after just 18 hours a very irritable post was made - subsequent to that at least one of his requests was identified for him, yet to see a thank you for that, 48 hours later.

But when I have over 40 product from one company which all use the same installation method, and 1 won't reinstall, then I think 2 weeks to get an answer is less than good service. Take your point Gibbage, I suspect you guys would not have given me the same runaround. But I now have a number of companies where I have indeed "voted with my wallet" solely down to their after sales service.

 

[TeaSea]

I'm not a developer, or even very good at playing with code, but I do know a little about socialization and how people work together.

I think what you see on line basically mimics how people normally interact in the real world. If you think about it, you have a circle of family, then friends, then co-workers, then other people with similar interests, then companies or agencies you deal with at varying levels. Some of these sets overlap, but most don't.

If you have a problem or are just curious about something, you will normally turn to one of these groups depending upon what your particular issue is. Normally, I will not be asking my wife about the various aspects of an ILS approach into 05 at Lakeland Lindner Airport. Likewise, I won't be burdening my co-workers and boring them to death regards this question. I will however turn to various other aviators of my acquaintance, a CFI or two, and ask their opinions -- and I would normally do that FIRST before I'd go to the FAA. That's basically the way people operate on all levels. We will ask a question of someone we know socially first before we go to an official source. Sometimes that makes no sense at all, particularity if we're discussing a technical issue of which the other party will have no knowledge, but we will do it anyway. People invest in bad stocks everyday as a result--Hell, I've invested in bad stock doing that!

Basically, you'll ask an opinion of those you have a relationship with before you go anywhere else.

The online world is the same. Ironically, the query "what's the point" actually illustrates this. Why not ask this question of developers first? Why not ask your boss? Well, that just doesn't make sense, does it? So, we come here first....we want an opinion from people we have a common social interest with.

The trap for the online world is the anonymity of the forums, and of the web in general. Handed that anonymity, people will let their social norms fall by the wayside (their "manners", assuming they have any) and end up writing things they would never say in person. There are also people who are voyeuristic by nature, and will cause mischief and bully just because they can. It's a bit pathetic in that it provides a certain power that they do not have in their real lives. I like this forum partially because the members are more open, and will actually tell you who they are, something about their lives, and make contributions to the community overall (I'm not nieve, I know there are some of you who have created an on-line persona separate from yourselves, and I'm okay with that). Also, folks here will generally hear each other out and rarely lose their temper online (Don't Type Angry!). This is the only online participation I have (other than professional associations and Facebook) where I have actually met people who are members. Regards the "issues" brought out. I usually have any questions answered by members of this forum through simply following other people's discussions. I almost always have any questions I post myself answered within a day or so, and I've only gone to a developer once or twice (responsiveness varied -- older products generally don't get the attention that newer one's do -- which is understandable from my view).

So, back to the main point.....despite the potential traps of being on the web, the point is....

......because it's the way people are, and it usually works.

 

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL]

Another element that’s becoming all too common is the "Quitter" , working as I do with a number of 3PD's the phenomenon is biting our collective asses, modelers who have released aircraft and retired from sight prior to submitting the Service Packs to fix issues or the Source Files to allow it to be done.

Deano has suffered this and paid a heavy price as he gets the blame for not being able to respond to the problems with a solution, a problem not of his making but one his reputation has paid the price for,,, Dream Fleet , that time the owner retired unexpectedly , recently a complex project was 97.8 % finished when a partner withdrew , without word or warning, and the list goes on, one company will close its doors at year end, because they will actually make more money , or loose less of it ( same difference ) if the entire product line disappears from the market ..

The net result of the above situations is a total lack of support for those who did or will purchase any of the dozens of products affected , and the situation will more than likely get worse until Flight is released , that will revitalize FSX and allow for fixed targets again for production, complex systems and heavy metal will be FSX , eye candy and " an approachable flying game " will be the purview of Flive , who will be left come the time to produce models is anybody's guess at this moment . <o></o>
<o> </o>

 

[dharris]

On the subject of facebook, I had it, used it, found better alternatives, your milage will vary, as it should. However, if I go to a devs site to buy a product, and they have a support forum, I don't want to, nor should I have to go to some other site to monitor if my problem gets looked at. If they want to sell on facebook, fine, but on their own website, all business should be open to everyone concerned. I go to a support site for answers and advice, I am not going to monitor more than one spot for answers just because it is more convienent for the dev to "be there" on facebook. I have purchased a fair amount of payware and of the best support I can only count a very few that were helpful, if existant at all. The best was our own Meshman, personal and direct. Helpful before and after the sale. Great products that I still use to this day. No bones about it. I am aware of all the hard work involved, I have worked with programmers for years, and have seen what they have to go thru, would drive me up a wall. But when you decide to charge money for a product, there are things that go with it. If you offer support, that is your responsiblity to see it thru. If you don't think what you do is being paid enough for, charge more and see if the public agrees. Probably 80% of what I buy is fine and I have no problem with it. But it is the 20% that I may need varying degrees of help with, that is where I think I can expect support. If a dev does not want to support what he offers, just put it in the advertisement and let the buyer know up front, it is all part of what we pay for. Let the flames commence now, I am done

 

[Francois]

As we often say in another (not FS related) forums: this topic is worthless without pictures.



Someone mentioned win-win by criticism, but if we don't know who all these bad developers are that various people are alluding to, there's little chance of them learning, now is there? And so then, what's the point of the rant.
Come to think of it, I believe the ones providing bad support/service will a) not read this and b) even IF they do, not react positively anyway.
So that leaves the 'good' developers/publishers/distributors, and they are not targeted to begin with...... but may yet get frustrated reading these things rants.

Life's tough, ain't it? Both as forum posters and as forum readers, I might add.

Let me try and add something positive, in general: here's something I wrote on AOPA's blog about 'our' hobby and favorite pastime: http://blog.aopa.org/letsgoflying/?p=1157

We're not all bad ;-)

 

[monk1]

as the title suggest, its a rant

I seriously have to ask whats the point in this

ive lost count on the number times when a payware addon developer visits here and else where and rants or directs you, when you have issues or questions post it on their forums

the the past hour ive visited 4 fairly well known payware addon developer sites

all 4 sites are a ghost town, even the tumble weeds have packed up and left town , i lost count on how many posts were members have asked for assistance or asked a question and there has been no reply, I honestly can say its not like its a recent post most of them have been around for months view several views, and funny enough devs have posted in the forums since

I can think of 2 sites where the staff have posted screen shots and other staff have commented on the shot but have left everyones posts ignored and where majority of posts had ZERO replies and some even had bumps from the original poster, i can even say there are posts asking if anyone is out there?

so is there such thing as customer service? and whats the point of using these fruitless forums? and it can even be extended to this place, how many times has members raised a question and then you see a reply in the thread 3 posts later about something else, I can recall not long ago where a member asked a question and was ignored several times while a dev replied to other posts

If you dont reply, does that mean the question will sort it self out and disappear?

it just ##### me to tears that some people are quick to take money and complain about rivet counters, but provide very little support or guidance and ignore majority of posts of interested/concerned/potential customers

i for one want to show my gratitude, that members here raise theses issues and we are sorting them out within SOH , otherwise many people would see the effects of global warming before any assistance in reply form on certain payware forums

its just piss poor...

I couldn't agree more. I know exactly which forum you are referring to as an example, I was one of the people who had an unanswered post there. My list of one hit wonders is growing. Developers I've bought from once and will not purchase from again. Poor customer service has consequences. On the other hand, there are some stellar developers who back their products all the way and I'll continue to be a loyal customer to them.

Just a personal preference but I won't deal with a developer who does support via facebook or twitter. This is a hobby after all and I simply vote with my dollars.

 

[Skyhawk_310R]

If you wish to productively blame someone for payware companies requiring their customers to get product support only at a their company forums, which are normally access restricted to registered customers, then blame the people who steal such payware aircraft from pirate sites, or who purchase one legally obtained copy of the aircraft just so they can then host it on one of these pirate websites.

It is bad enough that international laws and police cooperation is so poor that such illegal activities are widespread. However, I think any fair-minded and reasonable person can understand that we payware people would prefer not to give someone who stole our product free technical support in addition to the airplane, don't you think?

At MilViz, we have always tried to treat our customers politely and respectfully. We have also always tried to provide the most timely and helpful feedback we could so they could enjoy the aircraft they purchased from us. All a customer has to do in order to gain access to our support forums is to provide us with their proof of purchase. Respectfully, I don't consider that an unfair or unreasonable requirement.

Again, if piracy was not so commonplace in our industry, then such measures would not be necessary. So, does one fairly blame the company or the criminals who so routinely steal as though there's no stealing about it?

Ken

 

[AndyG43]

If you wish to productively blame someone for payware companies requiring their customers to get product support only at a their company forums, which are normally access restricted to registered customers, then blame the people who steal such payware aircraft from pirate sites, or who purchase one legally obtained copy of the aircraft just so they can then host it on one of these pirate websites.

It is bad enough that international laws and police cooperation is so poor that such illegal activities are widespread. However, I think any fair-minded and reasonable person can understand that we payware people would prefer not to give someone who stole our product free technical support in addition to the airplane, don't you think?

At MilViz, we have always tried to treat our customers politely and respectfully. We have also always tried to provide the most timely and helpful feedback we could so they could enjoy the aircraft they purchased from us. All a customer has to do in order to gain access to our support forums is to provide us with their proof of purchase. Respectfully, I don't consider that an unfair or unreasonable requirement.

Again, if piracy was not so commonplace in our industry, then such measures would not be necessary. So, does one fairly blame the company or the criminals who so routinely steal as though there's no stealing about it?

Ken

The issue here is not that we have to go to a company's forum for support Ken; I think we all accept that there is a major problem with piracy, and registering in that way is a reasonable request. But when I go to a company's forum asking for support, them virtually accusing me in a public forum that I must have a pirated product is an issue? And when the problem turms out to be an issue with their database, as I suspected all along, it's ok for them not to apologise either privately or publicly? And thats putting aside the fact that they ignored several follow up requests for further support after their initial, frankly offensively rude, response.

Again, I will cite Razbam as a company who have given me excellent support recently; they have their own support forum, the realtime support on Facebook and Ron will often pick up on queries here at the Outhouse. I'm not saying that is the standard that all should aspire to (frankly I think they go above & beyond the call of duty), but ignoring requests, ducking issues, abusing customers & accusing them of piracy in open forum - that ain't good business.

 

[hae5904]

Just a personal preference but I won't deal with a developer who does support via facebook or twitter. This is a hobby after all and I simply vote with my dollars.

Everyone is entitled for having his/her own preference. But personally, support via facebook (more detailed compared to twitter, using screenshots as an example), is like "talking" on the phone with the dev or one of his/her team.
I call it instant support. Forums on websites need constant monitoring, while eg facebook could even be checked using a cell phone.........black berry or what ever. In other words, facebook is updated faster/and checked sooner compared to an forum on a website.

Hank

 

[whitney17]

If you wish to productively blame someone for payware companies requiring their customers to get product support only at a their company forums, which are normally access restricted to registered customers, then blame the people who steal such payware aircraft from pirate sites, or who purchase one legally obtained copy of the aircraft just so they can then host it on one of these pirate websites.

It is bad enough that international laws and police cooperation is so poor that such illegal activities are widespread. However, I think any fair-minded and reasonable person can understand that we payware people would prefer not to give someone who stole our product free technical support in addition to the airplane, don't you think?

At MilViz, we have always tried to treat our customers politely and respectfully. We have also always tried to provide the most timely and helpful feedback we could so they could enjoy the aircraft they purchased from us. All a customer has to do in order to gain access to our support forums is to provide us with their proof of purchase. Respectfully, I don't consider that an unfair or unreasonable requirement.

Again, if piracy was not so commonplace in our industry, then such measures would not be necessary. So, does one fairly blame the company or the criminals who so routinely steal as though there's no stealing about it?

Ken

Ken,

I'm totally sympathetic to your position, and think that all pirates, hackers, spammers, virus creators, etc. should be summarily executed and then given a fair trial. However, when a developer requires the purchase of his product before you can visit his support forums; it gives the impression to me, a potential customer, he's trying to hide serious problems with that product. Just an opinion.

Joe

 

[Skyhawk_310R]

The issue here is not that we have to go to a company's forum for support Ken; I think we all accept that there is a major problem with piracy, and registering in that way is a reasonable request. But when I go to a company's forum asking for support, them virtually accusing me in a public forum that I must have a pirated product is an issue? And when the problem turms out to be an issue with their database, as I suspected all along, it's ok for them not to apologise either privately or publicly? And thats putting aside the fact that they ignored several follow up requests for further support after their initial, frankly offensively rude, response.

Again, I will cite Razbam as a company who have given me excellent support recently; they have their own support forum, the realtime support on Facebook and Ron will often pick up on queries here at the Outhouse. I'm not saying that is the standard that all should aspire to (frankly I think they go above & beyond the call of duty), but ignoring requests, ducking issues, abusing customers & accusing them of piracy in open forum - that ain't good business.

OK, more than fair. I misunderstood your concerns. Yes, when you pay for a product or service, you have every reasonable expectation to receive prompt, effective, and courteous support. And certainly no customer who purchased the product should be accused in public especially of criminal activity. Piracy is not a trivial action and therefore it cannot be accused of someone in a trivial manner.

My apology for misunderstanding your initial concerns.

Cheers,

Ken

 

[Skyhawk_310R]

Ken,

I'm totally sympathetic to your position, and think that all pirates, hackers, spammers, virus creators, etc. should be summarily executed and then given a fair trial. However, when a developer requires the purchase of his product before you can visit his support forums; it gives the impression to me, a potential customer, he's trying to hide serious problems with that product. Just an opinion.

Joe

I respect your opinion. However, I hope you can understand that if anyone is allowed to view the support forums that in effect those who illegally obtained the product will receive the same support as those who purchased it with their hard earned money. Moreover, trying to hide systemic problems with the product is not going to get covered up by such a restricted forum. Problems that are not properly rectified will without question get aired publicly, either through product reviews or frankly by customers nailing us to the wall in public forums for the problems. You see the use of restricted forums does not prevent any customer from shouting from the highest mountaintop any and all concerns and dissatisfactions he may have. That's beautiful freedom of speech. But, by restricting the access to the support, only the customers are allowed to access the support given to fix their issues.

In an ideal world, it shouldn't come down to it. But, we most certainly do not live in an ideal world.

Ken

 

[Gibbage]

I call it instant support. Forums on websites need constant monitoring, while eg facebook could even be checked using a cell phone.........black berry or what ever. In other words, facebook is updated faster/and checked sooner compared to an forum on a website.

Hank

I disagree with this. The moment someone post's something on our forums at KCFS, I get an E-mail sent directly too my personal E-mail with the contents of the post. I got one of those 99$ HP TouchPads and I have it always on, and it notifies me within minutes of a new post. If I dont see a post within a few minutes, its because im asleep

 

[jeansy]

I was hoping it never became a name and shame thread

the way i see it, no one is asking for handouts, most people are just seeking guidance

but from looking at certain forums and threads here im left saying

its just rude, its no different from having a conversation and being repeatedly ignored

im sure if the shoe was on the other foot and these people were ignored, it wouldn't be a pleasant feeling




but thanks to all that have PM'd me regarding certain devs, I'll make sure i will try and stay clear of them :ernae:

 

[Gibbage]

I think your post is a very good one. Typically us in the 3rd party dev world must GUESS what the customer wants, see if it works, and go from there. Having an open thread like this allows is to see what the customer wants without the guesswork. Just as long as its civil and no name calling, I think its a very helpfull thread for all of us.