Panther_99FS
Retired SOH Administrator
MGM :mixedsmi:
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The Staff of SOH
"Von Richtofen & Brown" On The Tele Now
- Thread starter Panther_99FS
- Start date
Panther_99FS
Retired SOH Administrator
I thought the uniforms were pretty kEwL too...:mixedsmi:
Skyhawk_310R
Charter Member
I'm afraid that aviation history simply has to accept the truth that Roy Brown never shot down Richtofen. much less fired the fatal shot that killed him. And at this time, it appears nearly all of aviation historians have accepted that fact.
More objective research has shown with considerable proof that it was fired by one of two Australian machine gunners on the ground. This is primarily through research of the period autopsy performed on Richtofen's body, which showed that the angle of the fatal shot traveled at an angle that Brown simply could not have duplicated firing from above Richtofen as he did. The bullet traveled through Richtofen on an upward trajectory and based upon careful analysis of the two MG positions, researchers appear to have narrowed it down to just one of the two gunners, Sergeant Cedric B. Popkin. This man faded into posterity long before the research and there isn't even a single individual photograph available of him! His only wartime photo is him standing in a group shot of his unit, and you can barely see his features! He was interviewed after the war ended, and reported that he thought he fired the fatal shot, but it couldn't be proven beyond all doubt. He did not have access to the autopsy which NOVA used to put the matter truly to rest by matching his position when he shot at the plane with the forensics of the fatal shot.
Due to the mostly political and class bias of the era, this enlisted man and foot soldier was denied recognition for firing one of the most historically influencing bursts of machine gun fire of the war. No doubt his excellent marksmanship saved the lives of many allied airmen and troops by ending the scourge of the Red Baron. The shot was taken from about 500 yards and was nearly a 90 degree deflection shot! It was a shot any fighter ace would have been most proud of!
Returning to Brown for a moment, about the only way he could have fired that shot is if two essentially impossible things happened. First, Richtofen's airplane would have had to be nearly inverted so that the bottom half of his right side was exposed to downward arching machine gun fire. Second, after having been fatally shot, Richtofen would have had to retain control of a very inherently unstable aircraft for several minutes while suffering a fatal wound that certainly killed him in just a few minutes. After Brown's sole engagement and very brief burst of fire, Richtofen's airplane continued to fly for several minutes and maneuvered around obstructions (it was flying very low to the ground) and also performed a 180 degree arching turn over the Australian ground unit. That ignores the other reality that Brown's burst was extremely short in duration, and fired from a highly inaccurate deflection angle and from a longer than ideal range. In truth, Brown fired the burst more to get Richtofen off Second Lieutenant Wop May, who was being chased by Richtofen at the time. Brown's actions likely did save the life of Lieutenant May, so by no means was his attack without merit. Further, Captain Brown filed in his own report that his attack was "indecisive," and so he sought no such claim that he shot the Red Baron down. Brown's commander amended the report to assign that credit.
Three MG positions fired on his plane. The third one had the ideal vantage point to replicate the fatal wound and it was shortly after passing this position that the Fokker Dr-3 crashed in a field. Within seconds of the crash, Australian troops arrived on the scene barely in time to hear Richtofen utter his now famous last word, "Kaput!"
One of the most famous fighter aces in history was killed by a faceless and nearly nameless ground soldier. Though at the time that was a thought even allied airmen and generals couldn't accept, I think it is fitting that this was the case. Anyone can affect a war and so no one should be discounted without proof. Further, another lesson is that vice doing what he did nearly always in the past, which is making a very quick and lethal attack on a novice pilot, this last time Richtofen was fatigued, suffering from a gunshot wound to the head, and mishandled the attack and took way too long to get in position to make a quality shot. This delay exposed him to not only Brown's desperate attack, but also the highly effective three engagements by Australian gunners. By this stage of the war, the finest fighter pilot in the world had been used up and rendered combat ineffective but was put back in the war anyway. As a direct result, he exposed himself to risks he never before put himself in the position to face, and was almost certainly shot down by an Australian, Sergeant C.B. Popkin.
Ken
More objective research has shown with considerable proof that it was fired by one of two Australian machine gunners on the ground. This is primarily through research of the period autopsy performed on Richtofen's body, which showed that the angle of the fatal shot traveled at an angle that Brown simply could not have duplicated firing from above Richtofen as he did. The bullet traveled through Richtofen on an upward trajectory and based upon careful analysis of the two MG positions, researchers appear to have narrowed it down to just one of the two gunners, Sergeant Cedric B. Popkin. This man faded into posterity long before the research and there isn't even a single individual photograph available of him! His only wartime photo is him standing in a group shot of his unit, and you can barely see his features! He was interviewed after the war ended, and reported that he thought he fired the fatal shot, but it couldn't be proven beyond all doubt. He did not have access to the autopsy which NOVA used to put the matter truly to rest by matching his position when he shot at the plane with the forensics of the fatal shot.
Due to the mostly political and class bias of the era, this enlisted man and foot soldier was denied recognition for firing one of the most historically influencing bursts of machine gun fire of the war. No doubt his excellent marksmanship saved the lives of many allied airmen and troops by ending the scourge of the Red Baron. The shot was taken from about 500 yards and was nearly a 90 degree deflection shot! It was a shot any fighter ace would have been most proud of!
Returning to Brown for a moment, about the only way he could have fired that shot is if two essentially impossible things happened. First, Richtofen's airplane would have had to be nearly inverted so that the bottom half of his right side was exposed to downward arching machine gun fire. Second, after having been fatally shot, Richtofen would have had to retain control of a very inherently unstable aircraft for several minutes while suffering a fatal wound that certainly killed him in just a few minutes. After Brown's sole engagement and very brief burst of fire, Richtofen's airplane continued to fly for several minutes and maneuvered around obstructions (it was flying very low to the ground) and also performed a 180 degree arching turn over the Australian ground unit. That ignores the other reality that Brown's burst was extremely short in duration, and fired from a highly inaccurate deflection angle and from a longer than ideal range. In truth, Brown fired the burst more to get Richtofen off Second Lieutenant Wop May, who was being chased by Richtofen at the time. Brown's actions likely did save the life of Lieutenant May, so by no means was his attack without merit. Further, Captain Brown filed in his own report that his attack was "indecisive," and so he sought no such claim that he shot the Red Baron down. Brown's commander amended the report to assign that credit.
Three MG positions fired on his plane. The third one had the ideal vantage point to replicate the fatal wound and it was shortly after passing this position that the Fokker Dr-3 crashed in a field. Within seconds of the crash, Australian troops arrived on the scene barely in time to hear Richtofen utter his now famous last word, "Kaput!"
One of the most famous fighter aces in history was killed by a faceless and nearly nameless ground soldier. Though at the time that was a thought even allied airmen and generals couldn't accept, I think it is fitting that this was the case. Anyone can affect a war and so no one should be discounted without proof. Further, another lesson is that vice doing what he did nearly always in the past, which is making a very quick and lethal attack on a novice pilot, this last time Richtofen was fatigued, suffering from a gunshot wound to the head, and mishandled the attack and took way too long to get in position to make a quality shot. This delay exposed him to not only Brown's desperate attack, but also the highly effective three engagements by Australian gunners. By this stage of the war, the finest fighter pilot in the world had been used up and rendered combat ineffective but was put back in the war anyway. As a direct result, he exposed himself to risks he never before put himself in the position to face, and was almost certainly shot down by an Australian, Sergeant C.B. Popkin.
Ken
brad kaste
Charter Member
Ken,
Is it also true that the Richthofen broke one of his own cardinal rules he'd lecture to new, fellow pilots: "Don't fly or get caught over the enemies territory"?
Is it also true that the Richthofen broke one of his own cardinal rules he'd lecture to new, fellow pilots: "Don't fly or get caught over the enemies territory"?
Skyhawk_310R
Charter Member
That's true and it was a direct result of Richtofen's shocking delay in trying to set up May for the kill. During this time, May ran home and if Richtofen had been alert vice suffering from what today would have been termed a severe concussion (fatigue, blurry vision, dizziness), the kill would have taken place over German territory. The low-level chase was the result of Richtofen's judgment being impaired and his basic airmanship being compromised due primarily to the head shot wound he had not yet recovered from, plus the cumulative effects of combat fatigue.
This was also the time the German's last coordinated offensive was being launched and so Richtofen was very much in the mindset of desperation because he knew the war would be lost for Germany if this offensive failed due to the arrival of trained and equipped American forces in mass.
So, everything was set up to put Richtofen in the position to violate the rules he established for his pilots to fight, win, and survive. Through desperation induced disregard for these rules and the truth that he was medically compromised, he was a dead man walking.
Maybe one day Hollywood will actually make a movie that truthfully explores all these very compelling human factors. It would be a Das Boot style movie focused on Richtofen. It would tear away the notion of chivalry and replace it with the hard truth that the war was a brutal sausage grinder of human beings and by the time it was over most of the original veterans were dead, maimed for life physically or mentally, or so thoroughly wrung out that they were changed forever.
Second Lieutenant Wop May was lucky and knew he was lucky. However, truth is he lived the rest of his life likely without truly knowing just how lucky he was. He didn't face the lethal air ace, Manfred F. Richtofen. He faced a twice wounded, unhealed, mentally and physically spent man desperately fighting to keep his nation alive. Captain Roy Brown's diving attack was a desperate effort designed to protect the life of his wingman and Brown's maneuver was extremely risky. The reason the burst fired was so short was because anything longer would have resulted in Brown crashing into the ground and killing himself! Brown had ordered May to flee home if his unit engaged enemy fighters and that's what May did. May was also lucky in that Richtofen's brother earlier tried to attack him but his guns jammed! It was after this abortive attack that Manfred Richtofen engaged in a long low-level chase. Like I said, May likely never knew just how lucky he truly was.
Ken
Skyhawk_310R
Charter Member
This is very true. Did you also know that one of the stunt pilots was killed when his replica Se-5 spun in making a low level pass over the airfield? And another two stunt crew and pilot were lucky not to have been killed when the pilot suffered a bird strike in his head! He was knocked unconscious, and the out of control aircraft hit power lines, and then inverted and slammed into a river! Both were rescued alive and the pilot needed 60 stitches to close the wound in his head!
Those planes, even as replicas, were extremely hazardous to fly.
Ken
Panther_99FS
Retired SOH Administrator
Well,
There's always this film...:mixedsmi:
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Baron_(film)
There's always this film...:mixedsmi:
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Baron_(film)
Flyboy208
SOH Staff
And that is a superb film in it's own right ... Mike :salute:
Skyhawk_310R
Charter Member
I hate doing this, Ed, because it may appear like I'm nit picking. In truth the cinematography of this movie was praised, but the historical inaccuracies were worse than the previous movie you linked to. This film suffers from modern mores that criticize war. At the time, this was not the case. Richtofen made it clear that he was in the business of killing and his quote about having his hunter's instinct satisfied for about 15 minutes after a kill says about all one needed to know about him.
His dictates to his squadron pilots to aim for the pilot in a single-ship aircraft and for the observer/gunner in a two-seater also shows the mindset of the man. He was a killer living in an age where patriotism was celebrated. He knew the most effective way to destroy the airplane in that era was to kill or seriously wound the pilot, and in a two-seater, it was more important to kill or seriously wound the gunner to neutralize that rear-firing machine gun, and then upon doing that, re-attack the observer scout and aim for the pilot! And I have another insight for people. That's precisely the same mentality present in today's military. That may shock people, but make no mistake about it. You can respect a foe who fights with honor, but fighting with honor still means finding the enemy and killing the enemy and that's the way it's always been and always will be.
Other errors were simply contrivances for film drama. The fact is Richtofen never shot down Brown and never met him in any context. The truth is that allied airman wanted to kill Richtofen even as they respected and feared him. I think it is hard for modern society to understand this. But, when making a movie, a producer and director should have the courage to make the movie in a manner reflecting the period being depicted vice warping the period to match current societal mores. For me, the vastly more intriguing story is to accurately depict how Richtofen ignored his medical traumas and continued to fight because that's what was expected of him. He knew he was suffering terrible headaches, blurry vision, and dizziness. But, in his era, you climbed into the plane and flew and pursued the enemy.
But, the single most dishonest aspect of this movie is again where the producers wanted to turn Richtofen in character into something he never was in reality -- a modern day anti-war pacifist. That was dishonest. The producers might as well used a fictional character and produced a moral play. But, instead, the film makers wanted to feast on the historical relevance of Richtofen's life and abuse it to send a political statement. The truth is Richtofen believed in Germany, believed in his country's efforts, and wished to support them to the fullest. His only forlorn moments was in his own calculations of Germany's plight with the entrance of the Americans. But, that was concern about Germany losing the war vice a moral objection to the war itself, much less questioning the morality of Germany's leadership under the Kaiser. Make no mistake, until the moment he died, Manfred F. Richtofen wanted Germany to win that war, firmly believed Germany had the moral right to win that war, and wanted to do everything possible to ensure that victory.
Again, either have the courage and intellectual honesty to tell the story straight and accurate, or make a purely fictional movie and tell the story you want to tell.
Ken