The F-4 Phamton VS The Mig 17 Mig 21

Hey DL .. WOW Mig28s, no one has been this close before:biggrin-new:

I'll see if I can get a chance to dig up that dogfight sequence today .
 
:cool:Quite an interesting study, get two people who know their aircraft
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Bjoern said:
Man, I wish my a/b discipline in Strike Fighters was as good as Cunningham's.
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I'm sure it would be....if it was as much of a life-and-death issue...;)

You know a Mig in 'Nam can't be 'that' fantastic when a Thud could [did] get the better of it...;)
 
Jafo said:
I'm sure it would be....if it was as much of a life-and-death issue...;)

You know a Mig in 'Nam can't be 'that' fantastic when a Thud could [did] get the better of it...;)
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Obviously there is the element of talent - but training is at the heart of that outcome.

This diagram speaks to precisely the training that both the USAF (in Constant Peg) but more particularly the Navy (in the early Top Gun days) drove home about how to fight in the F-4. There's almost zero lateral turns - almost all vertical maneuvering on Cunningham's part - playing the F-4s strength against the MiGs weakness. The reference to "Toon" is unfortunate, as it's since been established that this wasn't the name of the fateful MiG pilot - but that's minor.

And yes, even in the hands of a decent pilot, the '17 was a force to be reckoned with. In the hands of trained pilots, doubly so. Almost every single regularly-trained US pilots were "killed" on their first engagement with the well trained Constant Peg pilots. It wasn't until their 2nd or subsequent exposure sorties that they could beat the MiG. Indeed, Constant Peg kept the Mig-17 in US inventory until well into the 80s - that's how much of a threat the USAF/USN believe it to be. To the extent that the A-4 performed similarly, and that it was the other staple USN/USMC adversary trainer (the F-21 Kfir being a relatively minor player) the shadow of the humble little MiG-17 cast a long shadow on the US air arms for many years.
 
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"The wonders a thrust/weight ratio of 0.75, a good airbrake and an internal gun can do..."


Of the 26 Migs downed by the Thud during the war, all but one was to the gun.
 
delta_lima said:
Obviously there is the element of talent - but training is at the heart of that outcome.
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It would be interesting to try this out in a multiplay, although we can't be affected by 'G' but I wonder how much the practice from that diagram can prove how good our FS models are, I don't have a Mig17 but I do have the Virtavia A4 ... I could be ... Mister Toon for an after Noon - It is one hell off an idea to see how close we could get this.
 
Thudman said:
Of the 26 Migs downed by the Thud during the war, all but one was to the gun.
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Was the AIM-9 even standard loadout?




I've done a Strike Fighters mission in Phantom yesterday. F-4E in a 1979 scenario, so with rather usable weapons and a gun. The internal mission generator screwed up a bit because it pitted my flight of four F-4s against two MiG-21bis on an intercept mission. The MiGs were unusually docile, so I could try out the whole "don't afterburn" thing. It worked quite well, even in jojos and rolling scissors but my AIM-9Js just refused to work. Normally, the later Sidewinders are an instant kill because the VVS seems to be a bit averse to using chaff and flares. Yesterday though, none of them made it to target. Needed to extend out a bit and down both Fishbeds with Sparrows (Foxtrot version). Talk about an unusual experience.
Also got me a Flogger with a Sparrow on the way back home. He strayed a bit too far from another furball (involving Warthogs and Eagles) and made for a nice, juicy radar target.
Good stuff!
 
Bjoern said:
Was the AIM-9 even standard loadout?
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I didn't know this until a few years ago - but they were carried on occasion. Not standard, but there were single - and occasionally double railed AIM-9s carried by '105s in Viet Nam.





Stop gap measure when insufficient MIGCAP F-4s (see back on topic! :biggrin-new:) were available - is my understanding.

DL
 
That's just as many missiles as a F-104 or F-8 can carry. Plus a lot more dakka for cratering stuff. :biggrin-new:
 
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