Hi Rick,
Thank you for the offer.
Let me just summarize the changes I have made, and the reasons why with their (cross-) effects and I'll shoot you a copy of the revisions.
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B26B FSX Native Marauder Painters Release Beta 1.0
- Thread starter Milton Shupe
- Start date
- Status
Hi Rick,
Thank you for the offer.
Let me just summarize the changes I have made, and the reasons why with their (cross-) effects and I'll shoot you a copy of the revisions.
Problem: The glass seemed too transparent in many angles and lighting conditions except where specular was obvious. I tried broadening the specular but that made the center areas too rich.
The revised glass testing really started when I found this in the SDK:
"When assigned and engaged in a material, the Fresnel Ramp defines incident-angle opacity and colorization for a given channel on an object. The reflection characteristics of a material will be affected by any Fresnel Ramp assigned to that channel in the material. As a general rule, any Fresnel Ramp assigned to a channel on a material will mitigate that channel’s opacity. Channels (Reflection, Specular and Diffuse) will almost always appear stronger and more opaque if a Fresnel Ramp is not present as an adjunct to that channel. Unmitigated channels can appear overly forceful, so it is not recommended for most applications that Fresnel Ramps be removed altogether. If a user wishes to reduce the effect of a Fresnel Ramp on most materials it is recommend that they edit it rather than attempt to remove or disable it.
However, for some very specific materials, it is useful to remove the Fresnel Ramps from certain channels (the Glass and Chrome materials used for aircraft, for example). Fresnel Ramps generally reduce the effect of a channel which they are assigned to, but if you are looking to maximize the reflective qualities of such materials as glass and chrome, then remove the Fresnel Ramps. For most materials, those that are not highly reflective, this is not recommended."
As a result, I removed the Diffuse from the Fresnel ramp control and adjusted the diffuse alpha (of cabin_glass) for a test.
I then increased the Opacity Scalar to 35% and later to 60%. (Actually this is called the Final Alpha Blend scalar)
This was done because I found that the stronger the reflectivity, the more transparent the glass.
I then reduced the Reflectivity scalar to 80% testing along the way for each change.
I ultimately settled on 60% on the Opacity scalar.
The Global Env map is not good for this aircraft and we chose to go with Banana Bob's for better reflective properties.
This is where we are now in testing and so far, the improvements are very good.
I have created two new model folders for testing: 1) Revised Fresnel (removal of Diffuse with changes as described above), and 2) NoFresnel - we have not done any testing with this one yet.
Unfortunately each of these changes are requiring material setting changes, then testing. If we can get close, then we can tweak, possibly, with the textures.
If we wish to pursue testing on the NoFresnel ramp model, we should discuss what initial material settings to start with. I left all the textures in the Diffuse, spec color, and spec level slots.
We would likely have to get a reading on a baseline test, then decide what to adjust from there.
I also understand that you, Steve, and I are in different systems and sims, so results may be difficult to compare.
So, that is where we are ...
The revised glass testing really started when I found this in the SDK:
"When assigned and engaged in a material, the Fresnel Ramp defines incident-angle opacity and colorization for a given channel on an object. The reflection characteristics of a material will be affected by any Fresnel Ramp assigned to that channel in the material. As a general rule, any Fresnel Ramp assigned to a channel on a material will mitigate that channel’s opacity. Channels (Reflection, Specular and Diffuse) will almost always appear stronger and more opaque if a Fresnel Ramp is not present as an adjunct to that channel. Unmitigated channels can appear overly forceful, so it is not recommended for most applications that Fresnel Ramps be removed altogether. If a user wishes to reduce the effect of a Fresnel Ramp on most materials it is recommend that they edit it rather than attempt to remove or disable it.
However, for some very specific materials, it is useful to remove the Fresnel Ramps from certain channels (the Glass and Chrome materials used for aircraft, for example). Fresnel Ramps generally reduce the effect of a channel which they are assigned to, but if you are looking to maximize the reflective qualities of such materials as glass and chrome, then remove the Fresnel Ramps. For most materials, those that are not highly reflective, this is not recommended."
As a result, I removed the Diffuse from the Fresnel ramp control and adjusted the diffuse alpha (of cabin_glass) for a test.
I then increased the Opacity Scalar to 35% and later to 60%. (Actually this is called the Final Alpha Blend scalar)
This was done because I found that the stronger the reflectivity, the more transparent the glass.
I then reduced the Reflectivity scalar to 80% testing along the way for each change.
I ultimately settled on 60% on the Opacity scalar.
The Global Env map is not good for this aircraft and we chose to go with Banana Bob's for better reflective properties.
This is where we are now in testing and so far, the improvements are very good.
I have created two new model folders for testing: 1) Revised Fresnel (removal of Diffuse with changes as described above), and 2) NoFresnel - we have not done any testing with this one yet.
Unfortunately each of these changes are requiring material setting changes, then testing. If we can get close, then we can tweak, possibly, with the textures.
If we wish to pursue testing on the NoFresnel ramp model, we should discuss what initial material settings to start with. I left all the textures in the Diffuse, spec color, and spec level slots.
We would likely have to get a reading on a baseline test, then decide what to adjust from there.
I also understand that you, Steve, and I are in different systems and sims, so results may be difficult to compare.
So, that is where we are ...
Mach3DS
Charter Member
Milton, if you use fresnel affecting reflection only, this will allow a good reflection in the off angles (the edges) while maintaining a good clarity through the glass on head on viewing angles. Oddly enough I never had an issues with the glass as it is currently and really liked the effect. Did you try using banana bibs alternate environment map with the original glass priotr to making the materials change just to see if it worked better for you?
Rick,
First, I have not disturbed the original settings or model. I am running tests with test models and textures.
No, I did not try Banana Bob's envmap as I did not have it.
But, the issue was not the reflection itself, but the excessive transparency at angles where specular was not present. It was as if no glass existed especially in the lower areas (which were also the ground (darker) area of the envmap).
What we wanted was obvious glass in all viewing angles with or without reflections or specular.
Now, we still have good reflections, but more opacity, and a little broader specular effect.
The 20% reduction in reflections gave a softer, less new car window look, while maintaining an obvious reflection background of sky, clouds, and landscape.
New car ad window reflections did not go well with the aged and weathered, well-used aircraft appearance.
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Rick, (and anyone else who is interested)
I have uploaded a test package to experiment with glass settings.
Here is the Test Package. It can reside in the airplanes folder along side the original without impact.
It has two models:
1) Revised Fresnel (Diffuse Not checked, Glass Opacity increased, Reflectivity decreased/softened by 20%), and
2) No Fresnel for Diffuse, Reflectivity, or Specular. (Glass opacity increased, reflectivity decreased by 20%),
I also changed the primary channel color of the cabin_glass.
Both have all the original textures specified in the Diffuse, Spec Color, and Spec Level slots.
There are two texture folders, each containing full textures from the common and livery folders so you can change and test one without disturbing the other. I had not yet put Banana Bob's envmap in the texture folders. I tested without that, so please put the envmap in the folders before testing.
The panel and sound folders are aliased to the original. You may have to modify the alias statement to point to your named folder of the original B26 package as I use an underscore in front my folder name to keep it at the top of the aircraft list.
I have both the No Fresnel and Revised Fresnel versions appearing about the same now.
See what you think. Change and test as you like.
http://www.sim-outhouse.net/downloads/SOHTeam/B26Testing.zip
Thanks
Milton
I have uploaded a test package to experiment with glass settings.
Here is the Test Package. It can reside in the airplanes folder along side the original without impact.
It has two models:
1) Revised Fresnel (Diffuse Not checked, Glass Opacity increased, Reflectivity decreased/softened by 20%), and
2) No Fresnel for Diffuse, Reflectivity, or Specular. (Glass opacity increased, reflectivity decreased by 20%),
I also changed the primary channel color of the cabin_glass.
Both have all the original textures specified in the Diffuse, Spec Color, and Spec Level slots.
There are two texture folders, each containing full textures from the common and livery folders so you can change and test one without disturbing the other. I had not yet put Banana Bob's envmap in the texture folders. I tested without that, so please put the envmap in the folders before testing.
The panel and sound folders are aliased to the original. You may have to modify the alias statement to point to your named folder of the original B26 package as I use an underscore in front my folder name to keep it at the top of the aircraft list.
I have both the No Fresnel and Revised Fresnel versions appearing about the same now.
See what you think. Change and test as you like.
http://www.sim-outhouse.net/downloads/SOHTeam/B26Testing.zip
Thanks
Milton
Mach3DS
Charter Member
Milton are you saying that you removed the FRESNEL altogether from the exterior textures? While the SDK does state that FRESNEL reduces the effect... It's not by much, and having it active, its benefits to realism, far outweighs not having it. That would be my recommendation. And a selfish note... Lol... My metal uses the FRESNEL for exterior effect. Removing it removes a layer of lighting. We had the exterior setup for affecting specular only, which is IMHO the best results given the option of chosing between reflection or specular. Choosing the BOTH option blends the 2 effects and doesn't result in the ability to really make uses of either alpha channel or specular very well. Just my 2 cents.
Of course not.
This whole test is only about Glass. Exterior textures and settings have not changed since you did your work and there are no plans to change them.
Please re-read post #282; it's all about glass.
"... but if you are looking to maximize the reflective qualities of such materials as glass and chrome, then remove the Fresnel Ramps."
Mach3DS
Charter Member
LOL! phew! That's my bad Milton! Thanks for clearing that up for me! Sometimes I wonder how I miss the obvious! Human error I guess, mixed with age,kids and puppies!
Rick, if you will look at post 283 above, I showed the current material settings. There have been minor scalar changes since, but you will see that Specular and Reflections are still under the control of Fresnel Ramp. As I stated in 282, I only dropped Fresnel ramp from the Diffuse map.
EDIT: Those settings are for the Revised Fresnel test model.
In the NoFresnel test model, Fresnel is not active for any of the three characteristics.
In our testing so far, we have achieved good results on both sides, better IMO than the original model, but not quite where we would like it.
EDIT2: BTW, have you done any testing, changes? Could you do a proper Fresnel Ramp and test it on your system, then share it. I cannot edit the Fresnel ramp at all.
Mach3DS
Charter Member
Copy that Milton. No I have not done any testing yet. If you would like I can look at the model and likely figure out exactly what settings to use for glass with off angle Reflection? What's the verdict? Is it too reflective now? Or not reflective enough? What look are you ultimately trying to achieve? Starting with the end in mind will help me figure out what needs to be done. I'll fiddle with the original model first. And see what can be done. Then I'll move to the others.
As stated in post #282:
"Problem: The glass seemed too transparent in many angles and lighting conditions except where specular was obvious."
and in post #285:
"What we wanted was obvious glass in all viewing angles with or without reflections or specular."
So, that is the goal.
As you can see from the attached, the original #3 shows glass is not obviously there in some areas.
Attachment Legend: 1) Revised with a lighter cabin_glass primary, 2) Revised with a darker cabin_glass primary and alpha, 3) Original model and settings
In the revised glass material test (Only the diffuse slot is not under Fresnel ramp control) I darkened the cabin_glass primary and alpha channels to "tint' it darker a bit so glass is always obvious.
That would be the center section of the attached, #2.
Since Fresnel does not control the Diffuse, the Cabin_glass can be mod'ed to change opacity and tint.
The primary channel needs to be just dark enough to see glass at the bottom of the plexi nose and the alpha must be adjusted to tweak the specular.
Then all the other windows need to be checked to ensure they are okay.
What we found was that Steve's system renders much differently than my old system so finding something that suits everyone may be difficult.
We therefore recommend making changes to the cabin_glass in the texture folders to suit individual systems and leave the common texture folder as distributed.
"Problem: The glass seemed too transparent in many angles and lighting conditions except where specular was obvious."
and in post #285:
"What we wanted was obvious glass in all viewing angles with or without reflections or specular."
So, that is the goal.
As you can see from the attached, the original #3 shows glass is not obviously there in some areas.
Attachment Legend: 1) Revised with a lighter cabin_glass primary, 2) Revised with a darker cabin_glass primary and alpha, 3) Original model and settings
In the revised glass material test (Only the diffuse slot is not under Fresnel ramp control) I darkened the cabin_glass primary and alpha channels to "tint' it darker a bit so glass is always obvious.
That would be the center section of the attached, #2.
Since Fresnel does not control the Diffuse, the Cabin_glass can be mod'ed to change opacity and tint.
The primary channel needs to be just dark enough to see glass at the bottom of the plexi nose and the alpha must be adjusted to tweak the specular.
Then all the other windows need to be checked to ensure they are okay.
What we found was that Steve's system renders much differently than my old system so finding something that suits everyone may be difficult.
We therefore recommend making changes to the cabin_glass in the texture folders to suit individual systems and leave the common texture folder as distributed.
Attachments
Mach3DS
Charter Member
Milton,
Try doing this: (If you feel inclined)
On the original model >>> The current settings for Fresnel and Diffuse Alpha are set as follows:
Fresnel affects: Diffuse & Reflection & Specular.
Alpha: Blend Diffuse by Diffuse Alpha.
This is why changing the fresnel is not having a very good effect with the current settings, and changing the Alpha is not seeming to work correctly (at least from my POV). See Image.
-Try changing the original model to Fresnel Ramp affects only Reflection (This will allow for the reflection to be seen in those edges when the fresnel is created properly, without having to increase amount of actual reflection.
-The alpha is set to the reverse of what to me is normal (Using the INVERSE of the diffuse alpha). So, making the alpha darker was having the opposite effect? or no effect? Try changing this to Blend environment by the inverse of the Diffuse Alpha (like the other textures are set to).
I personally like your original as is, but I think we can solve this so as to use textures to define the glass, rather than setting the materials to something that cannot be changed later on.
Try doing this: (If you feel inclined)
On the original model >>> The current settings for Fresnel and Diffuse Alpha are set as follows:
Fresnel affects: Diffuse & Reflection & Specular.
Alpha: Blend Diffuse by Diffuse Alpha.
This is why changing the fresnel is not having a very good effect with the current settings, and changing the Alpha is not seeming to work correctly (at least from my POV). See Image.
-Try changing the original model to Fresnel Ramp affects only Reflection (This will allow for the reflection to be seen in those edges when the fresnel is created properly, without having to increase amount of actual reflection.
-The alpha is set to the reverse of what to me is normal (Using the INVERSE of the diffuse alpha). So, making the alpha darker was having the opposite effect? or no effect? Try changing this to Blend environment by the inverse of the Diffuse Alpha (like the other textures are set to).
I personally like your original as is, but I think we can solve this so as to use textures to define the glass, rather than setting the materials to something that cannot be changed later on.
Attachments
Rick,
See the attached.
Fresnel affects: Reflection & Specular (I only removed the Diffuse)
Once I removed the Diffuse from Fresnel ramp control in our tests, that allowed the cabin_glass channels to be adjusted and works as it would normally allowing adjustments to both primary and alpha channels with expected results by the end user.
Reflections look fine and are still under control of the Fresnel ramp. We did not increase reflections in our tests; I decreased their vividness and strength by 30% using the scalar (reducing that new car glass reflection). They are still strong and obvious, and under control of the Fresnel ramp.
The problem with the original is, at many angles, the glass is not obvious or visible in the plexi or the windscreen.
You can still achieve that look with the changes I have made simply by decreasing the primary channel darkness and tweaking the alpha.
I am now happy with the results. Steve is happy with his results. Our systems render the results differently so being able to adjust the cabin_glass channels by the end user is necessary as their systems may render differently as well.
Attachments
Steve, I have not updated the production version yet. Just received Steve's final settings and will go with that to update the production model.
Once done, I will re-export the models and post the updates here.
B26 Marauder Updates
Here are the updates regarding the glass textures.
Attached are three model replacement folders:
1) No Gun Pods, (model=b26-nopods)
2) 1 Gun Pod, and (model=b26-1pod)
3) 2 Gun Pods (model=b26-2pods)
Note that I have changed model folder names to better reflect the model variants. Please update your [fltsim.nn] sections (Sorry Steve.
Also included is a revised "cabin_glass.dds" texture for the common texture folder.
EDIT: Thanks to Duckie for the final cabin_glass.dds make up. Looks perfect on my system.
Here are the updates regarding the glass textures.
Attached are three model replacement folders:
1) No Gun Pods, (model=b26-nopods)
2) 1 Gun Pod, and (model=b26-1pod)
3) 2 Gun Pods (model=b26-2pods)
Note that I have changed model folder names to better reflect the model variants. Please update your [fltsim.nn] sections (Sorry Steve.
Also included is a revised "cabin_glass.dds" texture for the common texture folder.
EDIT: Thanks to Duckie for the final cabin_glass.dds make up. Looks perfect on my system.
Last edited:
Duckie
SOH-CM-2024
Here are the updates regarding the glass textures.
Attached are three model replacement folders:
1) No Gun Pods, (model=b26-nopods)
2) 1 Gun Pod, and (model=b26-1pod)
3) 2 Gun Pods (model=b26-2pods)
Note that I have changed model folder names to better reflect the model variants. Please update your [fltsim.nn] sections (Sorry Steve.
Also included is a revised "cabin_glass.dds" texture for the common texture folder.
Thanks Milton. Not a problem for me. I've become pretty adept at switching and making new model folders over the last couple days!
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