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Band of Brothers

Bjoern said:
Why, oh why can't we ease up on that subject in this country?
It's disgusting. You could tell so many fascinating stories from the war, but nooo, we're still guilty and humble, even after serveral generations.
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Why should we "ease up" on a subject as serious as this?
Would anything be cooler if we relaxed on this matter?
It's not a question of guilt.
It's about responsibility. The former President Richard v. Weizsäcker pointed it out clearly in his legendary speech on May 8th, 1985, the 40th anniversary of the war's end.

I don't feel guilty. I don't know what my grandfathers particulary did back then. One of them died at Stalingrad (presumably) some weeks before my father was born, so he never came to know him; the other one came home insane after being POW for 8 years. Remained a drooling wreck until he died 40 years later. If they had any guilt, they've payed for it.

What's wrong with humbleness?
I think it's one of the best human characteristics. The world is full of show-offs and loudmouths, do we germans really need to join in?

Since 1949, we have achieved a lot of things to be proud of, both East- and West-Germans. Isn't that enough? Do we have to base our tradition by all means in the period between 1933 and 1945?


Panzerbatallion 33 gets hammered because it uses the Afrika Korps' insignia (without the swastika)...
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Why had this symbol be used? Seems to me like a more than obsolete provocation...

This country needs a *realistic* confrontation with its past.
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Can't see what's unrealistic in my considerations...

Yes, the Wehrmacht was a tool for genocide, but it consisted of millions of men who fought because they had to or wanted to save whatever was of value to them.
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Genocide can't be performed by a small bunch of villains. It wasn't the Menjou-bearded lunatic from Austria on his own. The whole system worked because thousands and millions of Germans didn't waste a single moment thinking about their personal share in making a murderous regime work. Each one is to blame. It wasn't „them up there“.

So I personally don't have any reason to acknowledge or idealize anything done by a german soldier between 1933 and 1945!


Ken:
Thank you for respecting my point of view!

One particular example worthy of study is that of Werner Molders. His is a particularly tragic and yet compelling case of how good people can be trapped in an evil cause, but how they can retain their honor through their actions. Molders to make a long story short, was awarded the very first Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds. After he learned about the nature of the Holocaust and the arrest of the Catholic Bishop of Munster, he mailed directly to Adolph Hitler all his medal and insignia, with a letter stating bluntly he "would never again wear the symbols of such an evil regime." He then flew without authorization -- as the Luftwaffe IG of the Fighter Arm -- to an old squadron on the Russian Front and flew combat missions. There is at least one photo of him wearing a uniform beside his Me-109 sans all insignia and medals. Shortly after, Hitler ordered a Ju-52 to fly him back to Berlin. The aircraft crashed shortly after takeoff, killing all onboard -- another case of a crash too convenient as to escape rightful suspicion it was an act of premediated murder to avoid a humiliating courts martial of a very popular Molders.
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I don't know where this legend comes from, but a study of the „Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt der Bundeswehr“ (German Armed Forces Military History Research Office http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Armed_Forces_Military_History_Research_Office ), released in 2004, shows that Mölders in fact didn't ever show any signs of dissence to the system.
http://www.mgfa.de/html/neuigkeiten_2005.php?display_va=4367397887577
This study concludes that Mölders always acted as a reliable follower of the NS regime. He was a role model for the performance-oriented officer. He did enjoy the media's reception of him being a „hero“ of the NS regime.

The crucial point in this study is that his military achievements can't be seperated from the historical and political background they happened in.

Like I said, there's no good in evil.

Side note:
Mölders died on November 22nd, 1941 on his way to the funeral of Ernst Udet, when his He 111 crashed at Breslau. Two on board survived the crash. The crash happened after engine failure in a thunderstorm. I can't believe that the Fuehrer had any influences on weather conditions...

Furthermore, I've never read of any evidence to confirm his alleged rejection of medals. Sounds like one more legend to me. He was given a state funeral in Berlin on 28 November 1941.

Can't see a „good man trapped“ here.

Mölders might have felt an ambigious relationship to the fascist system, but beyond any doubt, he wasn't part of the resistance. He proudly served as an outstanding embodiment of the system. I can't see any single reason to honour him!

Cheers,
Markus.
 
Wild Bill Kelso said:
Why should we "ease up" on a subject as serious as this?
Would anything be cooler if we relaxed on this matter?
It's not a question of guilt.
It's about responsibility. The former President Richard v. Weizsäcker pointed it out clearly in his legendary speech on May 8th, 1985, the 40th anniversary of the war's end.
Click to expand...

Yes, responsibility. Responsibility without the cramped humbleness.

I don't feel guilty. I don't know what my grandfathers particulary did back then. One of them died at Stalingrad (presumably) some weeks before my father was born, so he never came to know him; the other one came home insane after being POW for 8 years. Remained a drooling wreck until he died 40 years later. If they had any guilt, they've payed for it.
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Well, grandfather one was a firefighter and thus didn't have to do any frontline service and grandfather two narrowly escaped a potential death sentence. He was assigned to the Volkssturm and got hidden in the cellar by his mother before either the SS or Russians could kill him.

But either death or a mental wreck...dang.

What's wrong with humbleness?
I think it's one of the best human characteristics. The world is full of show-offs and loudmouths, do we germans really need to join in?
Click to expand...

A bit of backbone is never wrong. Humbleness isn't the best thing if practiced constantly.

Since 1949, we have achieved a lot of things to be proud of, both East- and West-Germans. Isn't that enough? Do we have to base our tradition by all means in the period between 1933 and 1945?
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Well, militarily spoken WW2 was an astonishing feat for this country. From next to nothing to strength within six to seven years, from the home country to occupying most of the continent within three years. I call that nothing short of awesome.

So I can see the point of basing at least military traditions on that period.


Why had this symbol be used? Seems to me like a more than obsolete provocation...
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See above.


Can't see what's unrealistic in my considerations...
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Too humble, too guilt-ridden.


Genocide can't be performed by a small bunch of villains. It wasn't the Menjou-bearded lunatic from Austria on his own. The whole system worked because thousands and millions of Germans didn't waste a single moment thinking about their personal share in making a murderous regime work. Each one is to blame. It wasn't „them up there“.
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Everyone can be turned into a murdering drone if you create the right environment.
It was a totalitarian system with a typical "with us or against us" characteristic. "Nay" sayers don't live long or at least well in that kind of system.

The east-german border guards were caught in the same struggle. No sane being would shoot unarmed cvilians despite a clear order, but if you always practically had a gun pointed at your back or the unfortunate option of a ticket to Bautzen or a miserable life for your whole family you practically had no option other than pulling the trigger.

It's the way the system worked.

So I personally don't have any reason to acknowledge or idealize anything done by a german soldier between 1933 and 1945!
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You don't have to idealize anything.

Our local filmmakers have already proven that they can tell the story realistically and in a publically acceptable manner. Der Untergang, Das Boot, Stalingrad, Stauffenberg, etc...
So why not tell one of the simple soldier?


The crucial point in this study is that his military achievements can't be seperated from the historical and political background they happened in.
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That just screams "double standard".

Hartmann, Rall, Steinhoff, Barkhorn...all aces from the war but founding fathers of the modern Luftwaffe.

Even some of the founding fathers of the FRG weren't really "clean".
 
Markus,

I have a book on my bookshelf right now with that photo of Molders in uniform sans all medals. I have no fewer than three authoritative post-war historical records that certify the letter was sent and Molders resigned his position as Fighter Arm IG and left his post without authority.

See this link:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...mage_result&resnum=4&ct=image&ved=0CBoQ9QEwAw

The book "Black Cross, Red Star" is considered one of the finest written on the Eastern Front air war. The photo in this link was taken well after he was awarded his Knight's Cross with Diamonds (then Germany's highest honor). That he isn't wearing it in this photo isn't an oversight on his part. Military custom is that aces flew with the Knight's Cross worn around the neck.

I realize the writeup in the link is poorly written and filled with gramatical errors. However, the photo is right out of my own copy of the book and the letter he wrote to Hitler is documented.

The confusion comes from an effort by British Intelligence after Molders died to drop leaflets over Germany with a purported letter Molder never did write -- one that urged Germans to embrace the Catholic faith against the Nazis. That was a propaganda effort that was clumsy. However, the letter Molders wrote to Hitler was kept confidential.

Ken
 
Bjoern said:
Well, militarily spoken WW2 was an astonishing feat for this country. From next to nothing to strength within six to seven years, from the home country to occupying most of the continent within three years.
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Sorry, Björn, but this was the same efficiency that made concentration camps, gas chambers and crematories work so smooth...
Can't see any honorable merits in these achievements!

I think it's illegitimate to pick up one or two aspects of choice out the fascist regime and declare them as "good".
This leads to trivialization.

Looks like we both can't create any consent in this matter...


Ken:
I can't evaluate the quality of the sources you mentioned but there are a lot of myths created around former members of totalitarian regimes. Depending on the point of view of those mythbuilders, even the most convinced followers were turned into heroes of resistance afterwards, as long as the legend created fits to their own interests.
The whole revisionist historiography is full of those legends.

I once read that "historiography is the projection of ideologies into the past".
So who's trying to turn a celebrated "hero" of the Nazi system into an immaculate resistance fighter, defying Hitler?

Cui bono? This is the basic question I ask when such legends occur.

David Irving once wrote some remarkable books on war history. Now he belongs to the crazy detestable Holocaust deniers, serving their purposes. His so-called "studies" - cui bono?

I don't have any reason to doubt on the assessment of the German Armed Forces Military History Research Office mentioned above. This institution is far from being known for any ideological biased studies...
How about your sources?

Cheers,
Markus.
 
Wild Bill Kelso said:
Sorry, Björn, but this was the same efficiency that made concentration camps, gas chambers and crematories work so smooth...
Can't see any honorable merits in these achievements!
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Concentration camps were SS business, not one of the Wehrmacht.

Sure, Wehrmachtunits *were* responsible for atrocities committed on the front, but far less than you think.

As I said, the "cleansing" of the population was to the greatest extent SS responsibility because they were, thanks to their thorough indoctrination, way more eager to conduct crimes against humanity.

I think it's illegitimate to pick up one or two aspects of choice out the fascist regime and declare them as "good".
This leads to trivialization.
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And I say the whole matter is generally regarded as too trivial. Sure, the overall outcome of the twelve years is negative, but *just* negative?

My ethics teacher always told us to look at both sides of the issue before making a final decision, so why not use this approach universially?
There's no such thing as "pure" evil. Everyone has a, in his/her view, well founded motivation formed by experiences, surroundings and subsequent conclusions.

Looks like we both can't create any consent in this matter...
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Well, you can't have everything. :icon_lol:
 
Tom Hanks on THE PACIFIC:

"Certainly, we wanted to honor U.S. bravery in The Pacific," Hanks says. "But we also wanted to have people say, 'We didn't know our troops did that to Japanese people.' "
He wants Americans to understand the glories — and the iniquities — of American history. How did this shrug-prone comedic actor transform himself into our most ambitious champion of U.S. history? And how is his vision of history shaping the way the past informs and, yes, entertains us?




I don't know if this is going to be BOB in the Pacific.....viewing will certainly tell.


Full article:

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1969606,00.html
 
If there is but one lesson to be learned from the massive death and destruction of WWII it is the evil of racism. Both the Axis and the Allies, to one degree or another, suffered from it. It is poison for any civilized society. If we did not learn that lesson, then we learned nothing from WWII.
 
MyassisDragon said:
If there is but one lesson to be learned from the massive death and destruction of WWII it is the evil of racism. Both the Axis and the Allies, to one degree or another, suffered from it. ...
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I think its a little deeper than that, but you're certainly entitled to your views.


MyassisDragon said:
... It is poison for any civilized society. If we did not learn that lesson, then we learned nothing from WWII.
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No argument here with regard to the first part of this comment.

Unfortunately, looking at society today as a whole, No, I don't think anyone learned anything pertaining to racism as it still flourishes today. (People have just found a way of disquising it.)
 
MyassisDragon said:
If there is but one lesson to be learned from the massive death and destruction of WWII it is the evil of racism. Both the Axis and the Allies, to one degree or another, suffered from it. It is poison for any civilized society. If we did not learn that lesson, then we learned nothing from WWII.
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You're my personal hero of the day! Excellent post! :salute:
 
MyassisDragon said:
If there is but one lesson to be learned from the massive death and destruction of WWII it is the evil of racism. Both the Axis and the Allies, to one degree or another, suffered from it. It is poison for any civilized society. If we did not learn that lesson, then we learned nothing from WWII.
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That's a big amen! :engel016:

Ken
 
As a relatively new arrival here on SOH, I just wanted to say how refreshing it is to see a mature, adult discussion of a difficult topic. I've spent many years reading (though not posting too much) on another, well known, much larger site (the largest?) and am increasingly put off as each conversation there degenerates into a shouting match. I really appreciate the difference.

I have my own - pretty complicated - viewpoints about some of the issues that have been raised here. But that's not important now (to paraphrase Airplane!) It's just nice to find flightsimmers discussing - and disagreeing about - fascism and culpability, without coming to blows.

Looks like I might decide to relocate here.


Best,
Alan
 
Alan_A said:
As a relatively new arrival here on SOH, I just wanted to say how refreshing it is to see a mature, adult discussion of a difficult topic. I've spent many years reading (though not posting too much) on another, well known, much larger site (the largest?) and am increasingly put off as each conversation there degenerates into a shouting match. I really appreciate the difference.
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That's mostly because we have mods here who close and delete threads quicker than one can say "Jizlback", which quite necessitates a mature discussion style. And I really appreciate that!
 
True, but the moderators on the other site (which I won't call AVSIM) seem pretty active these days, too... it's just that things seem to get out from under them faster.

I can't imagine this debate going on for so many posts over there without coming completely apart. It's impressive.


Best,
Alan
 
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