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Cost of developing

I'll use some vague information to help, if I may. I have to be careful what I say, however, because it is in the best interest to not divulge client information about such things.

I can, however, tell you from experience that a P-51 Mustang will outsell pretty much every other warbird of that era, and might be superseded by a GA aircraft (depending on which model). There's also the issue of timing. The L-39 is a perfect example of that. At the time it was introduced, there wasn't many fighter/trainer jets available for FS, and the model brought new ideas to the industry that changed it in some ways (people's expectations that is).

When a developer develops an aircraft, they take risks and weigh that against known variables such as previous sales. The 377 from A2A Simulations is an example that I can publicly speak about. It was admittedly a risky move, and the company knew it. It turned out okay because of technology and timing, but if you want perhaps an idea of how successful it is against say, the P-51, compare the posts counts on A2A's forum and factor that in with how old the products are. Naturally, I can't reveal any real information from any company I've worked for unless we've stated it publicly, but yes these decisions are very carefully weighed, and it's exactly why we haven't seen any P-61s (despite my desire to also have one).

As for hourly wages, I almost never accepted them. I hated being bound to a contract with a company, and I'm sure they equally agreed. In this case, my product was the video, and I was generally paid in full at the completion of it (or half and half, depending on the contract). By being bound to sales or hours, it placed new constraints on me that I didn't desire, and also bound me to the company further than I was willing to go. I don't want to hand over time sheets and send in expenditures to my clients. In the few cases I did, where I was tied to the success of sales or an hourly rate, I was either too expensive for clients, or it turned out VERY bad for both parties (a subject I'm reluctant to get into). Being per job based allowed me the freedom to work with many different companies and not tie myself to one. Plus, once the check was in the mail, my expectations were met until the next project came up. This was FAR simpler for my clients and I, and made transactions and business very straight forward with no frills. As for my services, that depended a lot on the client and their budget. Needless to say, I never advertised price for this reason. Far too complicated and personal to just put a price on and advertise it, and my services were far more broad than a mere "video" production in most cases.
 
Thanks for the compliment..



Here is where my logic breaks down. I'm not so sure your scenario is realistic.

You are using an example (scenario) of a "detailed aircraft that not many people are interested in for whatever reason." I'd be curious to know how developers pick the product to develop. I've got tons of Mustangs from several developers, but nobody has yet produced a P-61 Black Widow.

It seems that there is no science behind the choice of what aircraft to develop, or at least I'm unaware of any survey's that have been conducted. I'd also be curious to see the sales numbers on known payware aircraft to get some feel for how these really sell. I know what my favorites are, but I don't think I represent the average consumer.

And is one year a reasonable timeframe to develop a detailed aircraft? That would depend on the resources I would think. How many hours do the coder and modeler actually spend on the product? If they were paid by the hour, would it make any difference?

Got me curious now.

We've been over this many times but here are the plain facts:

A professional 3D modeller will charge anywhere between $30 and $60 per hour, many charge more, depending on the circumstances. If an average quality model takes let's say 1000 person hours to make, it is a simple task to see how much the base cost would be. Way outside the park for most developers and publishers.

If a title sells 250 copies, as a small operator, you're doing OK. At $20 ticket price per that would be a gross income of $5,000 before taxes and expenses such as programming, texture artists, sound engineers and then the costs of promoting and selling the product. You can see where this is going.

Most modelers commissioned to work on flight sim projects, therefore, will work for a percentage of the product's net income after taxes, paid as royalty. This is beer money for most and cannot provide a full-time living without a "day-job" of some description. This impacts on the time available for these people to work on flight sim projects which is why production times become what they are. Also, unfortunately, many countries now charge a royalty tax which can be deducted at source before the modeller receives their royalty commission.

So in answer to your query, hourly rates cannot work in this business, ever, unless we are talking about maybe $5 per hour? Yeah right.

Professional modelling software can cost thousands of dollars for one seat.

A mutually agreed price for the job is usually negotiated or, as I have outlined, a royalty agreement is entered into, based on sales percentages.

Just as a side comment, whenever you see "best-sellers" lists in third-party sellers' websites, you would be astonished at the actual figures involved - this is a VERY small market.

Choice of subject is not usually random, it is based on research to indicate what sells and what does not. The community on the whole is quite conservative and the biggest buyers are those who "fly" airliners or belong to virtual airline groups or the remaining numbers who like to use GA aircraft to get about their virtual worlds. Military is actually quite restricted, usually to fast jets.

It is a brave soul who ventures into the realms of rare, unusual subjects with an aim to make any income. Best left to freeware developers who have the time and good graces to do the work for nothing.

I would refer you back to the latter half of point number 1) in my learned colleague's earlier post. That really is the point.:engel016:
 
Well made points Baz. I don't think any developer would hate the business, so to speak, unless they are making plans to leave it. I think most of us love what we do, even if we barely scrape by. This can be a bridge too far for some people, but occasionally someone will be successful enough to go full time. Most of the only full time members in this work are very successful owners or publishers, but I'd imagine 90% of the people in this industry have another primary income. My most successful years were when I had another job. The extra dosh was great for vacations, but the biggest mistake I made was going full time. It nearly ruined my love for the hobby.
 
This is an interesting topic.

The PMDG MD-11 is an example of this. That MD-11 was a fantastic addon, it was unique, not your run of the mill Boeing or Airbus, it ran on moderate systems well with decent frames. The PMDG 777 for all its awesomeness does require a pretty high end rig to run at it's potential. However the MD-11 was a poor seller, much like it's real world counterpart. Those who own the PMDG MD-11 love it and have been begging PMDG to give it some updating, however PMDG has been quite clear they will not touch this project again. It's too bad that such a unique well built addon has to be let go in favor of more generic 'common in real life' aircraft.

To their credit, PMDG is pursuing the DC-6, which I hope sells well. I also hope vintage aircraft fans here consider getting the PMDG DC-6 too. The more support we can show PMDG for this project, the more likely they will do some vintage planes in the future, because the majority of their customer base wants modern day common airliners. Hopefully PMDG can find a balance with this like A2A, build the common Liners and GAs ie 747 and Comanche, use the profits from those popular projects for the 'exotic' stuff...ie DC-6, AT-6...etc.

Cheers
TJ
 
Equally interestingly, though, Robert Randazzo has stated that the DC-6 will be a "comparatively light" package, compared to their other airliners - it will not be to the same level of complexity as their Boeings, or the A2A Accu-Sim B377. It's also actually only been definitively confirmed as being their first package for X-Plane 10. Everyone is expecting it to be FSX/P3D, as well, but it was noted by many people that this was not explicitly stated when the product was announced for XP. ;)

Regardless of what platform it is on, the fact that it has been repeatedly stated it will not be a "full complexity" model says a lot about the profit that PMDG expect to make from it.

Ian P.
 
A very interesting discussion. It seems I'm not yer average simmer, since GA and "big iron" hold little interest for me. Warbirds and the more idiosyncratic civils are more appealing, the An-2 as an example since I couldn't help but laugh out loud first time I saw a real one fly. This ancient-looking single-engined crate rolled out on to the runway farting and banging, rolled what looked like 50 feet, lifted steeply off the ground and kept climbing. The landing approach was even steeper.

I also build FS models as a hobby and after reading Cody's contributions I'm going to keep it that way. If others enjoy the (freeware) results that's fine, but I'm not going to fool myself that my taste in aircraft will sell shedloads in the FS market. As Tim Conrad put it: the freedom of freeware. I'm also sad to read elsewhere that beautiful models like Lionheart's Lear don't sell very well: he puts heart and soul into work like that and the sales returns don't justify it. Sigh.
 
...It's also actually only been definitively confirmed as being their first package for X-Plane 10. Everyone is expecting it to be FSX/P3D, as well, but it was noted by many people that this was not explicitly stated when the product was announced for XP. ;)

Regardless of what platform it is on, the fact that it has been repeatedly stated it will not be a "full complexity" model says a lot about the profit that PMDG expect to make from it.

Ian P.

Actually, he did say it's going to be for FSX/P3d as well.

Quote from RRs post on the DC6 for X-Plane thread...
The PMDG Classics DC-6B is the lead off product in a new breed of products for PMDG that will bring some "old school" aviation to our product lines for Xplane, FSX and Prepar3D. This product will drop for XPlane first- but shortly after will release for FSX and Prepar3D as well- making it the first PMDG product to appear on three different simulation platforms. (We count FSX and FSX-SE as a single platform...)
 
Int this thread I have seen several financial overviews a discussion about software. But what I miss in this thread is the word "fun". I create repaints because I think it is fun to create something. Am I the only one who is having fun?

A puzzled,
Huub

:dizzy:
 
That is a question that doesn't need to be asked Huub.

If you aren't having fun doing what you do, don't do it. After 40 years doing unthankful things and changing to 3D, I don't stop smiling.:engel016:
 
That is a question that doesn't need to be asked Huub.

If you aren't having fun doing what you do, don't do it. After 40 years doing unthankful things and changing to 3D, I don't stop smiling.:engel016:


I agree.. I think we're all in this, because of the enjoyment!
 
I agree.. I think we're all in this, because of the enjoyment!

Yes, I do it because it is 'fun' in a way, it can also be very frustrating at times. Choosing a subject can also be difficult especially as nowadays I expect myself to produce a better model than the one I did before, but also I have only concentrated on British light aircraft where I can get reasonable data, and aircraft like that are getting like hen's teeth. There are still plenty to do but there will be more & more guesswork into the interior & their flying characteristics. I must admit that I do enjoy experimenting with the FDE to hopefully get it near where I think it should be according to published pilots reports or even living pilots.
For me it keeps me occupied in my retirement & using my skills as an ex aeronautical design & development engineer, although sometimes my wife despairs at my length of time in front of the monitor, but I mostly prefer that to the rubbish that seems to be on TV that she watches & my body cannot keep up with the gardening work she cannot do!
Interesting discussion
Keith
P.S. This is a teaser of whats in the hangar with the UK based one being worked on also - completely different instrument panel & a couple of other things.

https://youtu.be/mtqTckp68ig

K
 
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There's a new example of what might or might not sell on this forum: the Grumman Tigercat by Milton. Gary is converting for FSX/P3D and it's looking marvellous already, but what would the payware crowd say? And would it sell in quantity? It would be on my shopping list, but I don't think I'm the typical customer.

It's a fine collective project instead and will be welcomed by me and others who like beautiful high-performance aircraft! :triumphant:


Keith: that's a tidy job and a beautiful aircraft! My wife and I are similar in our screen time pursuits...
 
That must have been in response to all the "umm, Robert?" comments, DaveWG... I did think it had gone quiet on the subject. Now I now why and I stand (sit?try not to fall over?) corrected. Thanks. :)

As has already been said, nobody would develop anything if they didn't enjoy it - or if there wasn't sufficient financial recompense. I think that this thread clearly shows that it's pretty clear that we have to do it because we enjoy it, because the income wouldn't justify it otherwise! ;)

...with which, back to something vaguely resembling a Bedford. I'm definitely staying firmly freeware for the near future.

Ian P.
 
Int this thread I have seen several financial overviews a discussion about software. But what I miss in this thread is the word "fun". I create repaints because I think it is fun to create something. Am I the only one who is having fun?
Huub, that truly depends on which sim version I'm working towards. For FSX and FSX:SE I have a blast! However, due to unfortunate language I have to maintain a stiff upper lip and avoid cracking a smile when working on a P3D model...

...lest anyone think I am having fun! :jump: <Joke!>
 
Fun when developing? Puh-lease.

Repositioned a scenery object?
Yeah, you need to restart FSX to view your change, buddy.

Changed a line of XML code in the Modeldef.xml?
You need to quit GMax, save the XML file and open GMax again.

Work on a XML gauge and the entire panel quits working?
Good luck trying to find the culprit!

Want to keep track of your repaint's progress in FSX?
Restart the simulator after every export from your painting tool.

Changed a coefficient in the FDE?
Reload the aircraft or flight, wait until the enines are spooled up again, adjust the coefficient, rinse and repeat.

Export a model from 3ds Max?
Only if you run it throught XToMDL by hand.

Found a visual glitch in a fully textured and animated model you've made and you need to remap and reanimate parts of it?
[Meltdown]

Finished an add-on?
Write endless amounts of largely unnecessary doucumentation that even the last moron will understand.

Publish an add-on?
I forgot file xyz. Need to reupload and notify everyone.

Published an add-on?
Some idiots are too dumb to read the manual and then go and ask dumb questions.

Made an exceptionally painter-friendly paintkit?
No one cares.

Desperately need reference information on something?
The internet doesn't have it as it's too specific.

Need to waste a lot of time with little gain in front of the PC?
Hey, let's continue project xyz for FSX!

Try to actually just fly?
Oh, wait. Let me just make a quick improvement here and there...

Try to fly and suppress the urge to do any kind of development on the aircraft, paint or scenery?
I can do this, I can do this, I can't do this, goddammit.

Using someone else's creations?
Why did you do it like this, man! There could have been a much better way!



My current theory is that I actually hate myself more than I hate developing.
There's no other explanation as to why I spend such a staggering amount of time doing stuff for FSX despite it being the frustration-soaked ride it is.


Fun fact:
I seldomly curse at software, except when it comes to development stuff. Then the FCC would have a censoring fest par excellence.
 
Finished an add-on?
Write endless amounts of largely unnecessary doucumentation that even the last moron will understand.
You left out a critical phrase from the above...

"...understand, and that no one will actually read."
 
Fun when developing? Puh-lease.

Repositioned a scenery object?
Yeah, you need to restart FSX to view your change, buddy.

Changed a line of XML code in the Modeldef.xml?
You need to quit GMax, save the XML file and open GMax again.

.... {snipped ...}
Fun fact:
I seldomly curse at software, except when it comes to development stuff. Then the FCC would have a censoring fest par excellence.

Excellent summation! :)

You left out a critical phrase from the above...

"...understand, and that no one will actually read."

LOL Good one :)
 
Repositioned a scenery object?
Yeah, you need to restart FSX to view your change, buddy

Or, just refresh scenery library, 15 seconds and it's done!

Changed a line of XML code in the Modeldef.xml?
You need to quit GMax, save the XML file and open GMax again.


Make the switch to Blender, and it's a single click!

Work on a XML gauge and the entire panel quits working?
Good luck trying to find the culprit!


Ever hear of back-up?

Want to keep track of your repaint's progress in FSX?
Restart the simulator after every export from your painting tool.

Um..I Just reload the model, via a different livery. Works every time. 2 min., tops.

Changed a coefficient in the FDE?
Reload the aircraft or flight, wait until the enines are spooled up again, adjust the coefficient, rinse and repeat.


I'm with you here.. I do like AFSD though, let's me monitor a lot of my values real-time, without always needing to see the results first-hand.

Export a model from 3ds Max?
Only if you run it throught XToMDL by hand.

Make the switch to Blender, again...​

Found a visual glitch in a fully textured and animated model you've made and you need to remap and reanimate parts of it?
[Meltdown]

Agreed!

Finished an add-on?
Write endless amounts of largely unnecessary doucumentation that even the last moron will understand.


And which they won't read, before calling support at 3am on a Sunday!

Publish an add-on?
I forgot file xyz. Need to reupload and notify everyone.


Good beta team - Work's wonders.

Published an add-on?
Some idiots are too dumb to read the manual and then go and ask dumb questions.

Reference above..

Made an exceptionally painter-friendly paintkit?
No one cares.


This is truly a shame. Few go far enough to properly give a really good paintkit. But when they do, they deserve to be praised. I for one will hail RealAir, for the the Legacy, John Terrell from Warbirdsim, Mike from Flight Replicas, and I'll curse Just Flight's DC-6, anything Alabeo/Carenado, Flying Stations Sea Fury, and Vertigo Bearcat.

Desperately need reference information on something?
The internet doesn't have it as it's too specific.

This is where it's good to have connections! When we were doing the T-6 FDE, is was a great privilege to privately drill about 7 other Real-World Pilots... And we were full of questions! Having a half dozen original manuals helped too, thanks to a Warbird owner in Australia.

Need to waste a lot of time with little gain in front of the PC?
Hey, let's continue project xyz for FSX!

Or, try to fly any Accu-Sim Warbird post GA release(s) and patch(s) and patch(s). and patch(s).

Try to actually just fly?
Oh, wait. Let me just make a quick improvement here and there...

​Do it right the first times, and it's amazing the leisure time that ensues...

Try to fly and suppress the urge to do any kind of development on the aircraft, paint or scenery?
I can do this, I can do this, I can't do this, goddammit.

Right? It's not only me!? I have a super High LOD Mesh/Photo scenery that's been in the works for several years..And every time I fly, I feel guilty.. Like I should be finishing that project! Dang!

Using someone else's creations?
Why did you do it like this, man! There could have been a much better way!

Always!​


I must agree...
It's perfectionism in most FSX developers, that makes us go through this kind of torture. Some subtle things do make me smile. Last year there was a release, of which I played a large role. Upon it's completion, the following months progressed, and not one solitary support question hit the inbox, after the first 750 downloads. Well... That feels good. I guess that's accomplishment. :)

Now.. Where did I leave my paintbrush, 3d software, audio software, manuals, books, pens, papers, CD's, COFFEE....my head!??

- Joseph
 
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