Navy Chief
Senior Member
I am hopeful that possibly you might create some of your absolute masterpiece repaints for the flightsim community? !
NC
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The Staff of SOH
DC Designs F-4 Phantom released...
- Thread starter RobM
- Start date
- Status
I am hopeful that possibly you might create some of your absolute masterpiece repaints for the flightsim community? !
NCUnknownGuest12
New member
Thanks. Cheaper than in Marketplace...
Navy Chief
Senior Member
Nope. Costs $3 more on Just Flight.
UnknownGuest12
New member
Nope. Cheaper in Just Flight. In EEC we use Euros. And we got bonus points....easy to compare.
Regards
Navy Chief
Senior Member
OK then, just us Americans get screwed.
UnknownGuest12
New member
Ok, regardless of price difference, bought it. A brief flight, no comments about the plane, what I miss is a more complete manual, not just using the on game check-list. "Gunsight reticle-as required", How? Where? Parking brake? just like so many others have to look everywhere . Why not a simple schematic drawing showing what and where? thanks
Reticle control is to the right of the radar scope - twist the knob to AG or AA. Reticle is green and should be red but hey-ho.
Parking brake is smaller yellow handle under the big red gear lever, can be tricky to grab - forwards to release.
I think in R/L that was emergency brake and not normally used?
Can't get the AOA indicator lights to work - quite important for the Phantom where AOA is key!
Artificial horizon is wrong, Stab Aug switches have been repurposed for autopilot channels, various labels wrong.
Early Phantoms shouldn't have slats. Panels should be different for each variant.
Auto-pilot and radar way too comprehensive.
Floats a lot on landing.
Textures I don't need to mention!
On the positive side, you can follow a flight plan via inertial navigation using the HSI and as you approach each waypoint it steps onto the next (simulates the rear-seater inputting coordinates on the fly).
I asked Dean to do this a while ago and he said no, but seems to have changed his mind
Makes it much easier to plan and follow a low-level route cross-country which I do a lot. The F-104s do this using PHI files.
On balance I think I'll get my moneys-worth flying this until a 'real' Phantom comes along.
Parking brake is smaller yellow handle under the big red gear lever, can be tricky to grab - forwards to release.
I think in R/L that was emergency brake and not normally used?
Can't get the AOA indicator lights to work - quite important for the Phantom where AOA is key!
Artificial horizon is wrong, Stab Aug switches have been repurposed for autopilot channels, various labels wrong.
Early Phantoms shouldn't have slats. Panels should be different for each variant.
Auto-pilot and radar way too comprehensive.
Floats a lot on landing.
Textures I don't need to mention!
On the positive side, you can follow a flight plan via inertial navigation using the HSI and as you approach each waypoint it steps onto the next (simulates the rear-seater inputting coordinates on the fly).
I asked Dean to do this a while ago and he said no, but seems to have changed his mind
Makes it much easier to plan and follow a low-level route cross-country which I do a lot. The F-104s do this using PHI files.
On balance I think I'll get my moneys-worth flying this until a 'real' Phantom comes along.
UnknownGuest12
New member
Thanks Keith. No expert here, very far from it, agree totally with you, think plane needs improvement on all the points you mention. Thought Bf-109 was a tricky plane to land....as you say this one is a floater. And wonder why so much work to produce a model and not just a little bit more to write a useful, usable, manual. Will wait for some kind of improvement to find out if I made a mistake, again.
DC1973
Members +
This will probably be my final post here. Despite what has now become a fairly typical derogatory tone from some users here, I don't want folks to not be able to use the Phantoms correctly:
If you use the Interactive Checklists, select a control command and then click on the "Eye" icons, you will find a friendly little arrow that actually points you toward all required switches, handles and buttons in the cockpit of all my airplanes. This includes things such as AoA Indexer light controls, Parking Brakes etc - they're all perfectly easy to find if you use the tools made available to you. These checklist methods are replacing manuals, as console users ( a huge part of the market now ) cannot access a manual from within the sim. Like it or not, that's the way things are going.
The Artificial Horizon will be made more complex to include heading and ILS bars etc, but like the F-14's ASI / Mach indicator which should be the same as the Phantom's, I have started with a more basic user-friendly version and will enhance it further in updates. AP and radar are what the majority of users want - again, I build for a mixture of realism but also practical functionality within MSFS rather than the real airplane's requirements. Same applies for labels, Stab Aug controls, colour of reticules, differing panels for differing variants and so on. The slats are in fact leading-edge flaps, and were present on all Phantoms - that's a label typo on my part which will be corrected. These Phantoms have no slats, which in real life were introduced to later variants to help prevent departures from controlled flight that plagued the earlier Phantoms at low-speed and high-alpha.
The Phantom was considered very stable in the landing configuration, far more so than the F-14 it replaced. Jmig will likely have a much better knowledge of this, but I've heard it from several former Phantom pilots during development, so while we're waiting for more feedback from our Phantom pilot testers before making any flight model changes, a tendency to float on landing is quite likely correct, or near-correct behaviour, for the type.
As a final line here at Sim Outhouse, I have always built aircraft that are more about enjoyment, good performance on any system, and entertainment more than anything else. More than that, I telegraph launches months in advance so that everyone has ample opportunity to see what they look like before deciding to buy.
Those seeking "more", and then complaining here or elsewhere that x-y-z aircraft of mine don't have the "more" that they want, are wasting their time as they're not my target market and have no effect on DC Designs. Likewise, no matter how hard they try to be cutting or insulting about any aspect of my products, they're outnumbered 100-1 by those who know precisely what they're getting, thoroughly enjoy the airplanes and buy more of them every time I launch a new one. The Phantoms are my most successful launch yet. There's no way on Earth I'd ever consider changing the DC Designs business model, because it's already proven to work so much better than any of the others out there. Those who think that even a high-fidelity aircraft in flight simulation is somehow "real" are living in fantasy land, and I no longer really worry about their opinions or comments on social media. What they want, enjoy, or consider to be "quality" or not, doesn't necessarily reflect what others think, and those who like to think that DC Designs aircraft are somehow of a "lesser" standard when it comes to satisfying the target audience are in a deep, deep minority. Don't take my word for it, check the Marketplace.
Enjoy this hobby for what it is; something that can be as complex, or as fun, as the individual user desires.
DC signing off.
If you use the Interactive Checklists, select a control command and then click on the "Eye" icons, you will find a friendly little arrow that actually points you toward all required switches, handles and buttons in the cockpit of all my airplanes. This includes things such as AoA Indexer light controls, Parking Brakes etc - they're all perfectly easy to find if you use the tools made available to you. These checklist methods are replacing manuals, as console users ( a huge part of the market now ) cannot access a manual from within the sim. Like it or not, that's the way things are going.
The Artificial Horizon will be made more complex to include heading and ILS bars etc, but like the F-14's ASI / Mach indicator which should be the same as the Phantom's, I have started with a more basic user-friendly version and will enhance it further in updates. AP and radar are what the majority of users want - again, I build for a mixture of realism but also practical functionality within MSFS rather than the real airplane's requirements. Same applies for labels, Stab Aug controls, colour of reticules, differing panels for differing variants and so on. The slats are in fact leading-edge flaps, and were present on all Phantoms - that's a label typo on my part which will be corrected. These Phantoms have no slats, which in real life were introduced to later variants to help prevent departures from controlled flight that plagued the earlier Phantoms at low-speed and high-alpha.
The Phantom was considered very stable in the landing configuration, far more so than the F-14 it replaced. Jmig will likely have a much better knowledge of this, but I've heard it from several former Phantom pilots during development, so while we're waiting for more feedback from our Phantom pilot testers before making any flight model changes, a tendency to float on landing is quite likely correct, or near-correct behaviour, for the type.
As a final line here at Sim Outhouse, I have always built aircraft that are more about enjoyment, good performance on any system, and entertainment more than anything else. More than that, I telegraph launches months in advance so that everyone has ample opportunity to see what they look like before deciding to buy.
Those seeking "more", and then complaining here or elsewhere that x-y-z aircraft of mine don't have the "more" that they want, are wasting their time as they're not my target market and have no effect on DC Designs. Likewise, no matter how hard they try to be cutting or insulting about any aspect of my products, they're outnumbered 100-1 by those who know precisely what they're getting, thoroughly enjoy the airplanes and buy more of them every time I launch a new one. The Phantoms are my most successful launch yet. There's no way on Earth I'd ever consider changing the DC Designs business model, because it's already proven to work so much better than any of the others out there. Those who think that even a high-fidelity aircraft in flight simulation is somehow "real" are living in fantasy land, and I no longer really worry about their opinions or comments on social media. What they want, enjoy, or consider to be "quality" or not, doesn't necessarily reflect what others think, and those who like to think that DC Designs aircraft are somehow of a "lesser" standard when it comes to satisfying the target audience are in a deep, deep minority. Don't take my word for it, check the Marketplace.
Enjoy this hobby for what it is; something that can be as complex, or as fun, as the individual user desires.
DC signing off.
UnknownGuest12
New member
Just one word about "If you use the Interactive Checklists, select a control command and then click on the "Eye" icons, you will find a friendly little arrow that actually points you toward all required switches, handles and buttons in the cockpit of all my airplanes.". In Operations manual I read "will highlight". People will never find anything if they don´t know what to look for. Never look for an arrow. So sorry....but think I´m entitled to a polite opinion for as inappropriate as they may be.
Signing off.
Signing off.
Bushpounder
SOH-CM-2024
Sorry to hear this, Dean. Yes, I've noted a bad tone from many as well. Shame.
Don
Don
jmig
SOH-CM-2025
The "C" and "D" models had what was known as Boundary Layer Control (BLC). When the gear was down hot engine air was diverted over the leading edge of the wing. The flow of air helped keep the air flowing smoothly at low speed and high AOA. It wasn't as good as the leading Edge flaps but it helped.
The Phantom was a very stable aircraft. Think of a Brick with two powerful engines. When you cut the power, she dropped. I don’t recall the Phantom ever floating, as per a GA aircraft.
My suggestion for landing is to fly the AOA to about twenty feet above the runway. If you are Navy Chief or an exMarine you fly the AOA to touchdown with no flare. The gear was designed to take this kind of landing. If you are a USAF wennie, as Navy pilots think of us, when you cut the power at about twenty feet, you flare slightly. She will drop (more gently) to the runway without floating.
DennyA
SOH-CM-2023
Dean, for every rivet-counter who complains about minutia or posts the three things wrong with a plane that gets hundreds of things right, there are dozens of us here who enjoy your planes and will miss your posts here. Sorry to see you go, but I get it. Folks defending negativity as their rights as customers will soon be shouting into an empty wind.
Really enjoying the Phantom! And I enjoy the F-15 a ton... I was lucky enough to get 90 minutes in the back of an F-15D, including some stick time, and the DCD fidelity is just what I'm looking for to recreate the experience.
Anyway, the Phantom's phabulous. Currently trying to master some Blue Angels routines and having a blast.
Really enjoying the Phantom! And I enjoy the F-15 a ton... I was lucky enough to get 90 minutes in the back of an F-15D, including some stick time, and the DCD fidelity is just what I'm looking for to recreate the experience.
Anyway, the Phantom's phabulous. Currently trying to master some Blue Angels routines and having a blast.
collensr
SOH-CM-2025
Dean - my only point to make is that I do believe that this is a "moaning minority" and they inhabit many other FS forums as well.
It just seems a shame to penalise the many well balanced and appreciative people on here for the actions of others - who as you have stated many times - are not even your target client base.
I don't believe their opinions carry any weight in the market so ignoring them / rising above them will not impact you either financially or reputationally.
Your call obviously - but this is along established and I believe valued forum for flight sim and it we shouldn't let these people spoil it for the others who always welcome you or any other Devs joining our conversations.
It just seems a shame to penalise the many well balanced and appreciative people on here for the actions of others - who as you have stated many times - are not even your target client base.
I don't believe their opinions carry any weight in the market so ignoring them / rising above them will not impact you either financially or reputationally.
Your call obviously - but this is along established and I believe valued forum for flight sim and it we shouldn't let these people spoil it for the others who always welcome you or any other Devs joining our conversations.
Well, I'm sorry if my comments upset Dean, but I don't consider myself a rivet-counter or moaning-minnie, I'd just like a reasonable degree of accuracy in the cockpit...and most of my points were confirmed by Dean himself and to be addressed.
We've had previous cordial discussions, I think I ended on a positive note... I flew the Phantom for a couple of hours today and will be back in it, low-level through Scotland, tomorrow morning.
Just to follow up:
Slats were introduced with the G model but retro-fitted to most (all?) E and F models but not the J. I incorrectly assumed that when the Slats indicator lit up in the cockpit that meant slats were fitted...
Stab Augs were used most of the time to apply some extra stability, Roll stability could be for example switched off when entering bandit country to give that extra bit of snap-roll response to break should it be needed.
Simulating this in MSFS could be tricky without an external fight-model so I'm happy to fly assuming the augs are in.
Autopilot, I'm happy to ignore.
We've had previous cordial discussions, I think I ended on a positive note... I flew the Phantom for a couple of hours today and will be back in it, low-level through Scotland, tomorrow morning.
Just to follow up:
Slats were introduced with the G model but retro-fitted to most (all?) E and F models but not the J. I incorrectly assumed that when the Slats indicator lit up in the cockpit that meant slats were fitted...
Stab Augs were used most of the time to apply some extra stability, Roll stability could be for example switched off when entering bandit country to give that extra bit of snap-roll response to break should it be needed.
Simulating this in MSFS could be tricky without an external fight-model so I'm happy to fly assuming the augs are in.
Autopilot, I'm happy to ignore.
Useful manuals for the F4E - https://www.f4phantom.com/docs/F4Manual-1979-T-O-1F-4E-1-Flight-Manual-USAF-Series-F-4E-Aircraft.pdf - the Full detail
and http://www.f4phantom.com/docs/F4_Phantom_Guide.pdf - much shorter, for Test Pilots School
and for the F4J - http://www.f4phantom.com/docs/NATOPS_F4J_manual.pdf
No joy with the checklists really, but that's probably my Luddite fault, anyway I found the switch for the AOA Index lights, on the right console, helpfully labelled something like AOA Index lights!
Having a lot of fun with my low-level flights, also dogfighting with Typhoons, full burner and the AOA warning beeping away madly
On a sadder note, there appears to be no drag chute for slowing down on landing, and the Radar Warning Receiver is missing (not a lot of use in MSFS admittedly, but should be there)...
and http://www.f4phantom.com/docs/F4_Phantom_Guide.pdf - much shorter, for Test Pilots School
and for the F4J - http://www.f4phantom.com/docs/NATOPS_F4J_manual.pdf
No joy with the checklists really, but that's probably my Luddite fault, anyway I found the switch for the AOA Index lights, on the right console, helpfully labelled something like AOA Index lights!
Having a lot of fun with my low-level flights, also dogfighting with Typhoons, full burner and the AOA warning beeping away madly
On a sadder note, there appears to be no drag chute for slowing down on landing, and the Radar Warning Receiver is missing (not a lot of use in MSFS admittedly, but should be there)...
UnknownGuest12
New member
Your comments about "moaning minorities" and your manifest intention of degrading people depriving them of importance just because they have a different , (although educated), opinion looks to me like a kind of offensive censorship, and think our moderator Tom, should have a word about it. And you´re so wrong about clients base. Own all the planes from DC. And yes, I rather prefer a proper manual to any "interactive checklist", if you don´t mind. And BTW, signing out.
Be well
Honestly, both sides are beginning to get a bit snippy, so I'm just going to pull the fire handle and let the hangar fill up with foam.
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