Douglas A20 Havoc

[SteveB]

As I am far from being any expert in gimp, like Huub I've always only used it too open more modern files and saved them, and they generally get around the old paint shop pro 565 error, however this sometimes causes problems with masked layers. So I have been learning too use gimp too try and sort out the problem. All I do too Wellis's textures in gimp is too reduce the total number of layers below the 99 max limit paint shop pro 7 likes, by merging down the layers that share the same properties and opacity. As for the problem of the masked layers not working in paint shop pro I have got as far as black box is bad (see picture). I usually Merge these together where poss and the black box goes away and the detail shows up in paint shop ?
It be witchcraft that no sane man should understand.

Steve

 

[huub vink]

Wow, you already came much further with Gimp than I did Steve . I guess we are just two old dinosaurs, too lazy to learn something new .

Wellis, thanks for looking into this, I have packed the converted thing and will e-mail it to you. When I unpack your zip file the file size is about 30 Mb when I convert it with Gimp and export it again, the file is less than 9.5Mb. So I think I about 65% of the original file was lost.......

Cheers,
Huub

 

[SteveB]

Somewhere back in amongst the 600 odd posts in this thread Papi asked a question about poss Luftwaffe use. It got me thinking and I do recall reading many years ago that Germany transported 3 ex French aircraft back too Germany via rail in 1942. If normal Luftwaffe practice was followed then at least one would have been rebuilt and evaluated. This would normally involve a trip around fighter units demonstrating the best tactics too use against the aircraft type. Unfortunately there are no known photographs of a DB7 in Luftwaffe colours, and all records where destroyed at wars end on the activities of KG200, who where more than likely the unit who would have evaluated and flown any such aircraft. My best guess is that it would possibly have looked something like this.

Steve

 

[SteveB]

Wow, you already came much further with Gimp than I did Steve . I guess we are just two old dinosaurs, too lazy to learn something new .

Wellis, thanks for looking into this, I have packed the converted thing and will e-mail it to you. When I unpack your zip file the file size is about 30 Mb when I convert it with Gimp and export it again, the file is less than 9.5Mb. So I think I about 65% of the original file was lost.......

Cheers,
Huub

Dinosaurs bloomin new fangled lizard things in my opinion. I told you before we made the mistake by getting out of the water in the first place.
Never thought I'd ever be discussing Gimp masks openly on the outhouse forums.

Steve

 

[huub vink]

The German "Beutemachine" looks good SteveB and I agree that it most likely existed and must have looked like this.

The Japanese had at least one DB7, which was build from pasts from the DB7s delivered to the Dutch in the Netherlands East Indies. To tell a long story in a few lines. The Dutch had ordered 30 DB7s from which 6 were delivered "boxed and crated" to the NEI. The Japanese had already invaded the Netherlands East Indes and there were no possibilities to assemble them. An attempt was made to ship them to Australia however this failed as well. To prevent that the aircraft would fall into Japanese hands they were destroyed (still in their original crates). However the Japanese were able to build at least one flying DB7 from the leftovers. The DB7 were from the same lot which was originally build for the French. So these aircraft arrived at least two times too late

Cheers,
Huub

 

[SteveB]

Huub.
Wings Palette have a good side view of the Japanese scheme you mentioned in your previous post I grabbed a copy of it a while back and was thinking. But you should do it, after all it was the DEI that lost it in the first place, so you should get first refusal.

Steve

 

[SteveB]

Oh if only they had come in a few weeks earlier.

 

[huub vink]

And here a picture from the real thing and what Douglas had in mind................

And I did some additional reading and came across this document: http://www.academia.edu/3126218/The..._DB-7B_Bostons_of_the_Dutch_Naval_Air_Service

 

[SteveB]

That there thread sure answers a lot questions on the cammo scheme carried on the Japanese aircraft, so I'm up for doing the scheme, not sure about the pilot though.

Steve

 

[SteveB]

But it should look something like this, very early WIP.

 

[SteveB]

I have spent a bit more time on the Japanese scheme this evening.

 

[michaelvader]

Douglas A20 Havoc Luftwaffe Beutemaschine

Hallo Friends,

that there will be no confusion, I did not want to have a A20 absolutely in Luftwaffe colors.
I just are astonished that I didn't find any trace of captured A20 or DB7 by the Luftwaffe.
The germans captured a lot of planes during the war. At first after the french capitulation, than later with emergency landed aircraft over the occupied regions and later on the eastern front.
Absolute no trace. When I was back home in my hollydays I searched all over my german archieves -
I did find nothing, than searching on the net - no trace. But there was certainly opurtunities for them to get one - nothing.
Or simply they wasn't interested in this plane?
This is a bit mysterious for me just when I see what they collected at their test center in Rechlin and not only flown by the KG 200 or the Zirkus Rosarius.
Yours
Papi

 

[gastonj]

At first after the french capitulation, than later with emergency landed aircraft over the occupied regions and later on the eastern front.
i

Hi,
You are wrong! In 1940, France is defeated, not capitulation but armistice. This is quite different because there was an Air Force, an Army and a Navy under government of Vichy called "Armée d'armistice". Theses forces were forced to fight against British army and Free French Forces after Mers-el-Kebir (that was in fact a war declaration by UK to the Vichy government) , in Syria, Madagascar, Dakar and operation Torch for exemple. After 1942 November (operation Torch in North Africa) Germans have invaded the South of Fance. The armistice was ended. France is legally back in the war, the Vichy Army out of France joined allied and Free French Forces. The Vichy government has no authority out of France, replaced by the CNR (Conseil National de la Resistance) of De Gaulle.
JMC

 

[wombat666]

"A total of 22 Bostons of the MLD arrived in Australia after the capitulation of the KNIL. From April 1942 onward No.22 Squadron RAAF was gradually equipped with twelve of these DB-7Bs, to begin with.
On 4 April 1942, however, No.18 Squadron NEI had been established in Canberra; a squadron that was manned with evacuated ML/KNIL personnel, supplemented with RAAF personnel.
It was equipped with six North American B-25C Mitchell bombers (one of which was with the USAAF for major repairs) and was awaiting the arrival of a further twelve promised B-25Csto supplement its strength.
In May 1942 the allied air force Headquarters in Australia decided,however, to equip both No.22 Squadron RAAF and No.18 Squadron NEI with Douglas DB-7Bs and A-20As (the latter being the American version of the DB-7B, different in its American armament calibers and American bomb sight).
No 18 Squadron NEI was to receive eight DB-7Bs from the reserve for No.22 Squadron and seven A-20As from the USAAF, and later a further three A-20As. In spite of the objections put forward (also on the political level), the 15 Bostons did arrive, the DB-7Bs on 7th and 8th of June and the A-20As on 12th and 13th of June 1942, while the B-25Cs were to be handed in.
However, on14th of June 1942 the exchange was cancelled. The Bostons were still used for a few days for training purposes, the last time on 22nd of June 1942.
The final ten aircraft, among which were the eight former MLD Bostons, were handed over to the commanding officer No.22 Squadron RAAF, who subsequently flew the planes over to Melbourne with several of the pilots of his squadron.
The A-20As went to the 8th Squadron of the 3rd Bomb. Group (Light) of the USAAF, the DB-7Bs once again destined to go to No.22 Squadron RAAF, or stayed at Melbourne as reserves for this squadron."

Very interesting article Huub and the story I heard from my Father (briefly stationed in Canberra at the time) added a little extra 'flavour'.
It appears that the B-25s were not actually 'handed in' as the Dutch aircrew had no intention of exchanging these aircraft that had (apparently) been paid for in full by their Government!
The USAAF crewed Bostons/Havocs arrived as scheduled, only to find the B-25s securely locked away complete with NEI native infantry complete with fixed bayonets guarding them.
Amid much 'political' hue and cry they stayed locked away, the USAAF crews departed by rail, and the A-20s spent their remaining time beating up Canberra during the Dutch crews leisure time.

 

[SteveB]

Papi.
I know you didn't ask for a Luftwaffe paint job, you asked a question that I had looked into many years ago whilst I was researching schemes for the Alphasim Boston which I was painting up at the time. Due too a lack of hard data, it was decided not too include a captured Luftwaffe scheme in the release. I painted one for my own use which I never released. So when you asked the question the inevitable happened and I painted a best guess representation sooner rather than later it was always going too happen.


Steve

 

[SteveB]

Oh if only they had come in a few weeks earlier part 2.

 

[huub vink]

Nice Steve as always

For recognition the aircraft would have received a KNILM registration number. RAF registration AL891 has received KNLIM registration D-22 and RAF registration AL895 had received KNILM registration D-22.

When they were handed over to the Australians the received the Australian registration A28-9/DU-K and A28-5/DU-F

Cheers,
Huub

 

[SteveB]

Nice Steve as always

For recognition the aircraft would have received a KNILM registration number. RAF registration AL891 has received KNLIM registration D-22 and RAF registration AL895 had received KNILM registration D-22.

When they were handed over to the Australians the received the Australian registration A28-9/DU-K and A28-5/DU-F

Cheers,
Huub

And where would one expect too stick D-22 onto, the fuselage just forward of the National insignia, or on the nose area type thing ?
And would the D-22 be in black or white ?
At the moment I have insignia only on bottom wings, should they also be on the top ?

Steve

 

[huub vink]

Steve,

Some times my books even surprise me. I just checked my standard book on Dutch Camouflage and Marking (A real collectors item by now!) and it contains a copy of the Douglas drawing 5161024, which shows the Dutch scheme. It is indeed a standard RAF scheme, with orange triangles at both sided of the fuselage and orange triangles at the bottom of both wings. (so none at the top)

Although there is no indication of the registration numbers I expect they would have been located at both sides below the cockpit (quite high) in white. Similar as where the registration numbers on the early Dutch B-25 Cs were placed.

Another perhaps more logical position for the registrations numbers could have been; Just "22" in white on the nose and the full registration number behind the orange triangles at the fuselage.

Cheers,
Huub

 

[SteveB]

Something like this perhaps ?