jamminjames
Charter Member
Great looking P-70's Mick and G from Huub. Looking forward to adding these to my hanger!!!
Douglas A20 Havoc
- Thread starter Milton Shupe
- Start date
As I am wrapping up changes to the FS9 Only A-20 and P-70, if you have any issues with the current "pre-beta", you need to make them known now.
They may have been fixed, or may not have been, and this is your chance to register any issues you are aware of.
There may be some custom xml code things I cannot fix but I will try.
Please post any issues you currently have now.
(Do NOT post FSX/P3D issues here. Those versions are completely different now.)
They may have been fixed, or may not have been, and this is your chance to register any issues you are aware of.
There may be some custom xml code things I cannot fix but I will try.
Please post any issues you currently have now.
(Do NOT post FSX/P3D issues here. Those versions are completely different now.)
Mick
SOH-CM-2025
I can't comment on the A-20 bombers. I have one comment - I wouldn't call it an issue - with the P-70s, and it's just a matter of file names and the way they are reflected in the aircraft.cfg files. I don't know if it's worth the trouble of "fixing" because nothing is really broken. (OK, here comes a long comment about a little thing!)
Anyway, here are my observations.
The "P-70A-1" is really a P-70 (no suffix letter). It can only be configured as that version, with the belly cannon pack and chin guns. It has no provision for the nose guns that defined both P-70A variants.
The "P-70A-2" might be called just P-70A, since it has the armament options common to both the P-70A-1 and A-2. That is nose guns, chin guns, and no belly cannon pack.
The "A-2" also has the option of the belly cannon pack, which no P-70A had, but that's good! It's good because if Wells' outstanding skin for "Dusty," which was a straight P-70 with the belly pack, is assigned to the "A-1" model, the nose art on the right side of the nose doesn't display properly, as it doesn't show up where it impinges on the overpainted glass areas. Oddly, that doesn't happen on the left side, or on either side with the "A-2" model. If the "A-2" model is configured like a straight P-70 (no suffix) there are small dimples where the nose guns would be on an A model, but you have to look really, really close to see them, closer than anyone but a skin painter is ever likely to look; I find it easy to ignore them.
The P-70A-1 was converted from early A-20. A-20A and A-20B's that had previously been converted by "Pappy" Gunn's people to gun-nosed strafers. The P-70A-2 was converted from early A-20G's that didn't have the Martin turret and had their nose gins built in at the factory. There were internal differences between them, but if there were any visible external differences, it takes more familiarity with the plane than I have to know about them and better eyes than I have to see them.
Well, that's a lot of verbiage to explain a little thing that doesn't really demand attention! I guess whether or not you edit the model names and cfg files depends on how compulsive you are about little things that don't really effect the model in the sim.
I will hold off on posting my P-70 skins until I know whether or not you're going to make those edits, so I can write ReadMe files that make sense both to folks using the present beta release and the future final release. I'm in no hurry. And I won't feel bad if you decide to just leave things as they are.
Anyway, here are my observations.
The "P-70A-1" is really a P-70 (no suffix letter). It can only be configured as that version, with the belly cannon pack and chin guns. It has no provision for the nose guns that defined both P-70A variants.
The "P-70A-2" might be called just P-70A, since it has the armament options common to both the P-70A-1 and A-2. That is nose guns, chin guns, and no belly cannon pack.
The "A-2" also has the option of the belly cannon pack, which no P-70A had, but that's good! It's good because if Wells' outstanding skin for "Dusty," which was a straight P-70 with the belly pack, is assigned to the "A-1" model, the nose art on the right side of the nose doesn't display properly, as it doesn't show up where it impinges on the overpainted glass areas. Oddly, that doesn't happen on the left side, or on either side with the "A-2" model. If the "A-2" model is configured like a straight P-70 (no suffix) there are small dimples where the nose guns would be on an A model, but you have to look really, really close to see them, closer than anyone but a skin painter is ever likely to look; I find it easy to ignore them.
The P-70A-1 was converted from early A-20. A-20A and A-20B's that had previously been converted by "Pappy" Gunn's people to gun-nosed strafers. The P-70A-2 was converted from early A-20G's that didn't have the Martin turret and had their nose gins built in at the factory. There were internal differences between them, but if there were any visible external differences, it takes more familiarity with the plane than I have to know about them and better eyes than I have to see them.
Well, that's a lot of verbiage to explain a little thing that doesn't really demand attention! I guess whether or not you edit the model names and cfg files depends on how compulsive you are about little things that don't really effect the model in the sim.
I will hold off on posting my P-70 skins until I know whether or not you're going to make those edits, so I can write ReadMe files that make sense both to folks using the present beta release and the future final release. I'm in no hurry. And I won't feel bad if you decide to just leave things as they are.
Thanks Steve; that has been corrected.
Well, if you really want to get picky about these things, I did four models to represent a whole lot of different ones. They all have the same "G" based VC and either C styled fuselages and wings or "G" styled.
Those four models were then redone to remove the Load Sheet and custom XML and converted to FSX Native. So, there are now 8 different models (not including the two models I did for the CFS2 guys).
There are no DB-7's, Bostons, or anything but C's and G's.
As for armament, you can configure in FS9 however you wish; at least you have some configuration options unless I have to remove that as well (as I did for FSX/P3D) due to un-resolvable issues (by me).
As for "Dusty", yep, it's wrong.
Oooops!I am not overly compulsive about such things since 99.99% of everything in these models are wrong in one way or another. It's simply eye candy and likenesses.
It's a game, and these aircraft are flown by keyboard, joysticks, and mice on a computer by non-pilots who have an interest in aircraft and want to enjoy a diversion from the real world.
Thanks for the observations.
Mick
SOH-CM-2025
Well, if you really want to get picky about these things, I did four models to represent a whole lot of different ones. They all have the same "G" based VC and either C styled fuselages and wings or "G" styled.
Those four models were then redone to remove the Load Sheet and custom XML and converted to FSX Native. So, there are now 8 different models (not including the two models I did for the CFS2 guys).
There are no DB-7's, Bostons, or anything but C's and G's.
As for armament, you can configure in FS9 however you wish; at least you have some configuration options unless I have to remove that as well (as I did for FSX/P3D) due to un-resolvable issues (by me).
As for "Dusty", yep, it's wrong.
I am not overly compulsive about such things since 99.99% of everything in these models are wrong in one way or another. It's simply eye candy and likenesses.
It's a game, and these aircraft are flown by keyboard, joysticks, and mice on a computer by non-pilots who have an interest in aircraft and want to enjoy a diversion from the real world.
Thanks for the observations.
That all sounds good to me! I will make up the ReadMe's for the skins with the expectation that the file names and aircraft.cfg entries will remain as they are now. That's easier on my end too.
wellis
SOH-CM-2025
I apologize for the mistake on Dusty, and a bit embarrassed. It is too bad, it is a nice looking piece of nose art and as I explained to Milton, it must have been wishful thing on my part that I'd seen a pic of Dusty as an A2. Ah well.
Focke not fokker!
When I see discussions such as the above going on I am reminded of the time (at the age of 8) that my elder sis had thoughtfully remembered my discussion with Mother as to the Airfix Focke-Wulf 190 I was lusting after. She had gone into the local Woolworths and purchased what she had heard me discuss.
I am still mortified by my remarks on opening my present: 'That's not a Focke Wulf that's a Fokker Tri-plane'.
Sis, quite rightly said 'Well if you do not like it I will take it away, I am sure Dave next door will enjoy it'.
Please Milton don't take it away . . . .
Mal
When I see discussions such as the above going on I am reminded of the time (at the age of 8) that my elder sis had thoughtfully remembered my discussion with Mother as to the Airfix Focke-Wulf 190 I was lusting after. She had gone into the local Woolworths and purchased what she had heard me discuss.
I am still mortified by my remarks on opening my present: 'That's not a Focke Wulf that's a Fokker Tri-plane'.
Sis, quite rightly said 'Well if you do not like it I will take it away, I am sure Dave next door will enjoy it'.
Please Milton don't take it away . . . .
Mal
Mick
SOH-CM-2025
It's no issue, since the A-2 model can be configured with the belly pack just like the real Dusty.
Maybe in the final release there could be a note in the ReadMe to configure Dusty that way.
Did you read the story of how Dusty got that name? A landing gear malfunction led to a belly landing. The gun pack opened up and scooped many bushels of gravel and dirt into the fuselage. They were able to sweep out the gravel and solid dirt, but they never could get the dust out of it, and every time the plane flew there would be dust blowing around the interior. Oddly enough, the crew found that after the accident, Dusty was 15 to 20 mph faster than the other planes in the detachment! Nobody could explain that.
Mick
SOH-CM-2025
Another beautiful skin! Outstanding work!
wellis
SOH-CM-2025
Thanks for the info Mick and good idea on the readme. I will prepare something for Milton along those lines. I personally like the paint quite a bit (had to hand draw the "Dusty" to make it look right) and the real machine did not have the machine gun blisters, so its somewhat "close".
wellis
SOH-CM-2025
I have indicated to Milton that I would like to keep it in there but will also try to provide something else historically accurate. It won't be the first time I have strayed from the historical accuracy dictum. As I noted in a previous post, the desert camo livery I recently did for the model was actually on a B model and not a C. But it was such a challenging and interesting paint I just had to do it.
LOL Good one. I plan to take nothing away. If the Load Sheet works "well enough" in FS9, it stays. There is no way I can maintain it; the custom programming is way over my head using sim interfaces, macros, and xml coding not common in the standard model definition stuff.
For FSX and P3D, I had no choice, too many things just did not work. That release has been stripped of that and a lot of feature creep along with it. The programmer had not made updates to it since January (and other features are still waiting), and he has been missing in action since, (save a short stint to work on the F8F Bearcat and the latest planned release that is still awaiting final changes) and then disappears again since early June.
Frankly, I am tired of projects being held hostage by disappearing acts (without the courtesy of returning an email, PM, or giving a status). Twice in the past year by two individuals. I am determined to release this A-20 with or without the Load Sheet and feature creep.
It is thanks to Wellis that we can get this A-20 Havoc out the door. He saved it from the scrap heap.
Hi mick .
I bet they only kept the olive drab scheme up to there first major service, and then turned blue ish. No evidence too support this statement, just seems logical.
Steve
Mick
SOH-CM-2025
Hi mick .
I bet they only kept the olive drab scheme up to there first major service, and then turned blue ish. No evidence too support this statement, just seems logical.
Steve
That would be my guess too, if the Navy even put enough time on them to ever send them through the paint shop. I wish we knew for sure.
The best black & white photo I could find is in America's Navy & Marine Corps Airplanes (Dean) and it's clearly a two-color camo with late 1942 through early 1943 national insignia. The upper surface color is too dark to be Navy blue-gray, it's clearly not the 3-color scheme, so it has to be OD over neutral gray. Alas, the plane is brand new and completely bereft of markings other than the national insignia, so it's not a candidate for painting. And it offers no clues about how it might have been painted later on.
Seahawk72s
SOH-CM-2023
RAAF - Australia
Found these, nice coloration...
"22 Sqn RAAF A-20 Boston Skinpack
The Royal Australian Air Force started using the A-20A in early 1942 since they lacked a light bomber of their own. Nearly all of the early Bostons were hand-me-downs from the USAAF. Only about 3 dozen of the early A-20A/C models were delivered. They were only used by No. 22 Squadron. The camouflage paint was from RAAF stocks and applied by hand, so no two plaes were exactly alike. Spares were usually taken directly from US sotcks, so sometimes planes would be seen painted OD or Neutral Grey. Late in 1943 the official paint scheme was changed to plain Foliage Green over Neutral Grey.
The planes were modified from US A-20A/C standard by removing the bombardier position and adding machine guns to the nose. Usually, 4x.303 cal Brownings were used, but sometimes 3x.50 cal M2 MGs were used instead."
http://www.axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/download.php?view.635
Found these, nice coloration...
"22 Sqn RAAF A-20 Boston Skinpack
The Royal Australian Air Force started using the A-20A in early 1942 since they lacked a light bomber of their own. Nearly all of the early Bostons were hand-me-downs from the USAAF. Only about 3 dozen of the early A-20A/C models were delivered. They were only used by No. 22 Squadron. The camouflage paint was from RAAF stocks and applied by hand, so no two plaes were exactly alike. Spares were usually taken directly from US sotcks, so sometimes planes would be seen painted OD or Neutral Grey. Late in 1943 the official paint scheme was changed to plain Foliage Green over Neutral Grey.
The planes were modified from US A-20A/C standard by removing the bombardier position and adding machine guns to the nose. Usually, 4x.303 cal Brownings were used, but sometimes 3x.50 cal M2 MGs were used instead."
http://www.axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/download.php?view.635
Whose model are those skins for?