Freedom

[txnetcop]

You know, if someone wants to worship a toaster that's fine with me. Have at it.

Just don't tell me I have to worship the same toaster and beat me over the head with it. I think too many people confuse freedom of speech/thought/expression with the need to force (or enforce) their views and ideology on others.

Like Rodney King said, "can't we all just get along..."

-G-

It was one thread and no one was forcing you to believe what he believed. You could go look at another thread. I would like add it was appropriate considering what day it was. You did not have to agree just ignore it, that's all
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[MudMarine]

Mud no one needs to leave. You and even those we disagree with are valued here. We are brothers of our hobby. We love flight and flight simulation. We just need to learn to have respect for each other that's all.
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Agreed Ted. I've been a respectful member for years. But the idea of applying new rules becuase of a post on the most important day of my faith/our is deeply offensive! To close it is offensive! It reminds me of what countless pilots/aircrews have fought and died for.......GOD and country. I've seen countless threads and comments here that I don't care for but like the radio or TV I tune it out and move on.

 

[wombat666]

I guess when the proprietor comes out and nails his colours to the mast it's time to admit you are on the losing side and bow out of the discussion. What's the point now?
I will just say however that whenever I see a member of any faith taking advantage here and proselytising, whether it's with official backing or not I will continue to protest until I am inevitably banned.

Having been occupied with several important 'Real Life' issues I have not had time to do much more than make a quick pass through the Outhouse on a weekly basis, and then only if time permits.
Not having read the original post by Ken or most of the posts in this thread my first impression so far is why, and if I were a 'visitor' or 'prospective new member' it would give me pause for thought.

"I will continue to protest until I am inevitably banned"

Why bother?

As Ted has already pointed out, if you don't like it, ignore it and move along.
If you follow through with the above threat, then you are indeed part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I hasten to add this is my personal view, not in any way as part of the 'Staff'.
Now, if I may be excused, I shall return to the 'Real World' and get back to sorting out the genuine family problem(s) that I have on my agenda.

 

[MudMarine]

FORCE? Force n. 1. A body of persons organized for a certain purpose, esp. for the use of military power. 2. Strenght; power. 3. To compel to perform an action. 4. To inflict or impose.

Last time I check I've NEVER seen anyone trying to "force" their beliefs on anyone here?!

 

[MudMarine]

Having been occupied with several important 'Real Life' issues I have not had time to do much more than make a quick pass through the Outhouse on a weekly basis, and then only if time permits.
Not having read the original post by Ken or most of the posts in this thread my first impression so far is why, and if I were a 'visitor' or 'prospective new member' it would give me pause for thought.

"I will continue to protest until I am inevitably banned"

Why bother?

As Ted has already pointed out, if you don't like it, ignore it and move along.
If you follow through with the above threat, then you are indeed part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I hasten to add this is my personal view, not in any way as part of the 'Staff'.
Now, if I may be excused, I shall return to the 'Real World' and get back to sorting out the genuine family problem(s) that I have on my agenda.

I'm happy and proud to be part of the "problem"! It's a comment NOT a threat, can't see how that treatens anyone? Words have meaning and shouldn't be tosses around carelessly, some people forget that too often around here. I'm done with this it's reached the pointless point.

 

[Lateral-G]

It was one thread and no one was forcing you to believe what he believed. You could go look at another thread. I would like add it was appropriate considering what day it was. You did not have to agree just ignore it, that's all
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Ted,

Lighten up, OK? I'm a christian, a catholic too if you must know and proud of it. I happened to agree with the spirit of the previous thread regarding Easter and feel it was appropriate. I also believe in a person's freedom of expression and thought. I just don't like it when I'm told I'm wrong for believing in what I believe in.

If a forum member of another faith wishes to express their feelings of joy WRT to a holiday in a post then that is thier perogitive. Just so long as they don't attack/belittle/put down people who are not of the same viewpoint. If I disagree with their post I can ignore it or read it and move on without comment.

that's all....

-G-

 

[Snuffy]

What I find "funny" (read pathetic,) is the number of people who know a thread could be potentially "harmful to their over sensitive feelings", and yet open the thread anyhow, become offended as they suspected they would, and then cry about it.

Strangely enough, and more often than naught, those whose "feelings get hurt" are those who profess to be so "non feeling" to start with.

This Politically Correct crap, or looking out for the feelings of others, has gotten way outta hand ... and not just on these forums ... but nationally.

If you're going to be an athiest or an agnogstic, Fine, be one .... but at the same time understand that a person with a religious conviction has as much right to voice their feelings and opinions as you do so buck up and live with it.

This has nothing to do with the management of SOH, its staff, its memebers, or its rules. It has to do with your percieved feelings ... of right and wrong, and in this case you're wrong.

 

[txnetcop]

Ted,

Lighten up, OK? I'm a christian, a catholic too if you must know and proud of it. I happened to agree with the spirit of the previous thread regarding Easter and feel it was appropriate. I also believe in a person's freedom of expression and thought. I just don't like it when I'm told I'm wrong for believing in what I believe in.

If a forum member of another faith wishes to express their feelings of joy WRT to a holiday in a post then that is thier perogitive. Just so long as they don't attack/belittle/put down people who are not of the same viewpoint. If I disagree with their post I can ignore it or read it and move on without comment.

that's all....

-G-

That wasn't meant as an attack G. That is the problem with the written word. It does not come across well unless you can hear the inflection in a voice or see their face. I apologize if that seemed too direct. I got your point my friend.
Ted

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[txnetcop]

Most everyone knows I was a Vietnam era vet. I was assigned to tent with a guy name Ken Hashimura. He was a buddist. I was an atheist. The very first thing he erected in my tent was his worship area where he burned incense and prayed to Budda. At first I made fun of him and his "ridiculous superstition." Ken saved my life twice. I saved his once in the 13 months we were there. I figured early that I needed him because in spite of what I perceived as superstition I could count on him as a brother in arms. He died a few years ago. He was actually glad I accepted Christ as my Savior, not because he believed the way I did, but because, it was my "comfort." He needed his "comfort" in that worship area and he never once tried to force his way on me, and today I mourn his loss. ken was good man and a man I could trust because he proved he had my back. When a thread clearly does not match your beliefs, as long as that threat does no harm to another brother, walk away please so poor John(jmig) can enjoy his work as a moderator.
Ted
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[Clarke123]

Most everyone knows I was a Vietnam era vet. I was assigned to tent with a guy name Ken Hashimura. He was a buddist. I was an atheist. The very first thing he erected in my tent was his worship area where he burned incense and prayed to Budda. At first I made fun of him and his "ridiculous superstition." Ken saved my life twice. I saved his once in the 13 months we were there. I figured early that I needed him because in spite of what I perceived as superstition I could count on him as a brother in arms. He died a few years ago. He was actually glad I accepted Christ as my Savior, not because he believed the way I did, but because, it was my "comfort." He needed his "comfort" in that worship area and he never once tried to force his way on me, and today I mourn his loss. ken was good man and a man I could trust because he proved he had my back. When a thread clearly does not match your beliefs, as long as that threat does no harm to another brother, walk away please so poor John(jmig) can enjoy his work as a moderator.
Ted

It's no wonder then that you're so passionate about your faith and eager to defend it. We all know what kicked this off and the bit of fun they've had with it but don't let a bloody cockney wind you up so much. Ted, you have my infinite respect for your honesty and I can't imagine what you must have gone through. If your faith helped, then you carry on posting about it and I'll have your back in any argument.

 

[OBIO]

I generally avoid threads dealing with religion and politics...both topics are sure to come to a quick boil as differences of opinion collide. But I will post in this thread....not my opinion, but a true story of acceptance, tolerance, and brotherhood from two unlikely sources.

Back in 1987, I was a Freshman at Ohio Northern University in Ada, Ohio. One day at lunch, I was joined by two guys who were Juniors. Roommates for three years, these two men had been forced together by an unseeing housing department (or what ever you call the people who assign college students to their dorm rooms). These two men had a choice, kill each other or over come their differences and live in peace. These two chose to over come their differences, and as a result had become best of friends, brothers in spirit. Both of these men were approaching the US Government for the right to remain in this country once their education visas were no longer valid. Neither wanted to return to their home nation, as doing so would mean that they would once again become sworn enemies and would likely face each other across the barrels of their military rifles.

One of these guys was from Isreal. The other was a Palastinean. Jew and Arab. Sworn enemies at home.

But there on the campus of ONU, these two men were able to break through the generations old hatred and find that, deep down, they had much more in common than they had that was different.

These two men had become more than best friends, they had become brothers. And neither wanted to return to their home land, where their brothers (through national bent) would once again become their enemy.

I don't know if these two were able to stay in the US as they wanted. I don't know if they were able to be god-father to each other's children. I hope they were able to. I hope that all these years later that their families are getting together for cook outs and birthday parties and movie nights.

OBIO

 

[Lateral-G]

That wasn't meant as an attack G. That is the problem with the written word. It does not come across well unless you can hear the inflection in a voice or see their face. I apologize if that seemed too direct. I got your point my friend.
Ted

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Not a problem. :ernae: It's all good.....

-G-

 

[cheezyflier]

this division really bothers me. i love this place, and i think just about everyone i interact with here has some really cool aspects about them. of course well all have facets of our "selves" that get on peoples nerves, so to speak. i know there are aspects of myself that some of you could live without. (hey, be glad we're not in the same room, i'm worse in person) but to not have even one of you here would be a big change. i look at this place like a quilt and we are all a patch. know what i mean? y'all know i'm christian, but i don't want to drive away folks like tig, or maybe even piglet and some of the others who aren't. i would rather accept heavier moderation than the alternatives of driving people away, or having the atmosphere change to something more like oso's.

 

[Henry]

this division really bothers me. i love this place, and i think just about everyone i interact with here has some really cool aspects about them. of course well all have facets of our "selves" that get on peoples nerves, so to speak. i know there are aspects of myself that some of you could live without. (hey, be glad we're not in the same room, i'm worse in person) but to not have even one of you here would be a big change. i look at this place like a quilt and we are all a patch. know what i mean? y'all know i'm christian, but i don't want to drive away folks like tig, or maybe even piglet and some of the others who aren't. i would rather accept heavier moderation than the alternatives of driving people away, or having the atmosphere change to something more like oso's.

good one cheez
i have never had a problem with Kens original post
and this actually has nothing to do with Ken at all
my problem is whats happening now
we have a war going on member vs member
is this what everybody wants?
we use to have a forum here that tek set up
and it got so out of hand we deleted it
and let Oso's take over
this forum is taking on the same tone
we moderate we are bad people, we dont
and we are bad people
freedom of speech and freedom of religion
are extremely important to all
but there is a place and the newshaks
in my opinion aint it.
i have a friend who is on staff here
and is extremely anxious to have somewhere to post his beliefs
and talk to others who share the same
my beliefs are different than his
but he is strong in the way he feels
and i would do anything to create what he wants
but my fear is it would be warfare
everyone is entitled to there beliefs and entitled to be respected for them
the i am right and you are wrong approach
is where the problem lies
hence me thinking about harsher moderation
what does the end result in a thread like this accomplish?
H

 

[pilottj]

After observing the regular members here and their posts while I have been a member here, I gathered that the majority of them shere different political and religious views than myself. But I am not a member of this forum to talk about those things. While my primary purpose here is to share thoughts with everyone about our favorite hobby, flightsim, it is nice to have another forum to find out our other common interests such as music, cars, etc. Being that I am probably a bit more liberal than a lot of folks here, that doesnt stop me from wanting to share ideas with other flighstsim fans here, and it shouldnt stop any of them from wanting to share their flightsim thoughts with me. I have to agree that a discussion like this would be better at a 'cantina' type forum where it is understood that all the PC gloves are off and people can go at it politically/religiously to their hearts conent. A healthy debate is fine, because presents other perspectives to think about as long as the participants can avoid degrading it into personal attacks.
I agree with the Mods, in this forum and obviously the flightsim forums, this type of subject matter should be
refrained from being brought up.

 

[brad kaste]

Pissing contests never resolve anything. I hate to think of Henry taking a harsher moderation to the 'NewHawks' forum. That would help kill the spontaneity here which makes the ebb and flow of this forum so successful. Hopefully, cooler heads prevail.

 

[n4gix]

Humility...

Before I lose the opportunity to do so, I'd like to share some thoughts on "humility" that're totally "non-religious" in nature, or perhaps more to the point are pretty universal in application...

I wrote these for myself nearly forty years ago and read them every morning before beginning my day. I wish that I could always honor them completely, but even so they provide a centering point for me and a target for which to aim...

HUMILITY

Allow me to remind myself every day that among other
evident signs of a lack of humility are:

Thinking that what you do or say is better
than what others do or say;

Always wanting to get your own way;

Arguing when you are not right, or -
when you are - insisting stubbornly
or with bad manners;

Giving your opinion without being asked
for it, when charity does not demand you
to do so;

Despising the point of view of others;

Not being aware that all the gifts and
qualities you have are on loan;

Not acknowledging that you are unworthy
of all honor or esteem, even the ground
you are treading on or the things you own;

Mentioning yourself as an example in
conversation;

Speaking badly about yourself, so that
others may form a good opinion of you,
or contradict you;

Making excuses when rebuked;

Hiding some humiliating faults from your
spiritual director, so that he may not
lose the good opinion he has of you;

Hearing praise with satisfaction, or being
glad that others have spoken well of you;

Being hurt that others are held in
greater esteem than you;

Refusing to carry out menial tasks;

Seeking or wanting to be singled out;

Letting drop words of self-praise in
conversation, or words that might show
your honesty, your wit or skill, your
professional prestige;

Being ashamed of not having certain
possessions...

 

[Cloud9Gal]

Pissing contests never resolve anything. I hate to think of Henry taking a harsher moderation to the 'NewHawks' forum. That would help kill the spontaneity here which makes the ebb and flow of this forum so successful. Hopefully, cooler heads prevail.

Well said Brad! I agree wholeheartedly!

 

[TARPSBird]

One of the few benefits of the time I've spent in bars over the years is that I can easily predict the outcome of a conversation just by the subject matter and the tone it takes when the participating drinkers first start talking. Pretty much the same here, although alcohol consumption may not be a factor. Occasionally I see something posted and I say to myself, oh no, I'm not touching this thread with a ten-foot pole. Ken's Easter post was a perfect example. Well-intentioned, not meant to cause a ruckus, but there are always a few folks who just can't leave it alone. My perception of the NewsHawks forum is that it's a good place to post comments on music, funny/weird news stories, computer-related gripes and questions, and general aviation and flight sim topics. For other "gloves off" topics like religion, politics, sports loyalties, law enforcement (or lack of), other peoples' mothers, etc. etc. take that stuff to Oso's.

 

[magoo]

Henry
we have a war going on member vs member
is this what everybody wants?
we use to have a forum here that tek set up
and it got so out of hand we deleted it
and let Oso's take over

It's a reiteration.

Newshawks was created at the same time as Oso's Outhouse, for the reasons obviously seen in this thread. It was a failsafe solution to an existing and ongoing conflict that allowed SimOuthouse's front door forum to remain interesting, inviting, cordial, while heavy duty social debate was redirected to a padded forum.

It worked in spades.

With time, some internet characters of agitative intent departed, and (wooh!!) things became relatively calm here. The agitant power structure had failed, and the face to face reality of Oso's was just too honest an environment for them to survive.(Really hard work in there!!)

Oso's transmuted into the relatively hardcore Quartermoon Saloon (See bottom of the forum menu) and sim members here have been able use NewsHawks to focus more on the technical realities( among other things) of just keeping this website alive while others have fallen by the wayside or have suffered disaster. (Netwings, Avsim, etc...)

Now a little agitation has returned, and there's a debate about whether or not some new rules should be enforced in the Newshawks forum. Few seem to remember that the idea of the new rules, were in fact the raison d'être of this forum at the beginning. Things just became relaxed over time.

What is this entity of agitation? It's a character that looks for a soft place to nest. A place where it can recognize a weakness between people, using vageries of rule and format. It uses fear and encourages folks to turn against each other in a previously peaceful place. It's an entity that builds it own power by polarizing people's anxieties, and ultimately creates a ghetto of exclusionism to fuel it's own idea of a social power base.

It's already happening right here, right now. Some folks are lobbying like hell in private messages, some are digging in for online trench warfare, others are simply preparing to leave. Staffers are probably hoping hard they don't have to start banning members, and may even disagree about that! All in the SimOuthouse's private formal livingroom, the Newshawks.

Interesting how this kind of agitant discource and disagreement appears to follow that entity around the internet, where ever it goes.




The solution to all this is exceptionally simple and goes all the way back to the origins of Newshawks.




No religion or politics here.

Period.

Verbotten.

Always creates polarization, always creates conflict. Raises the workload of the website staff right through the roof, creates warfare and destruction where ever it goes. Guarrenteed destructive effect, well documented, proven time and again.

Write that stuff in a forum that's designed for it.

It's here, it's available at the bottom of the forum menu.

If those who feel so strongly about their convictions don't have the courage to publish their ideas in a forum that allows equal opportunity to opposing ideas in the fullest, then I have to become suspicious that we're witnessing a manipulation, a form of a social power grab, the tossing of an un-pinned hand grenade into a crowded room of innocents, as described above.

Ickie, Henry, Outhouse staffers, you guys have been here before and you know nothing has changed in the formula that now threatens the social structure of SimOuthouse. This is a phenomenal website in the field of flightsim technology. A format that has truly defied the odds to remain here and earn a wonderful reputation among flight simmer around the planet.

Around the planet.

It should not be wasted.

I would respectfully encourage retaining the original guidelines for SimOuthouse's Newshawks forum, wilst happily redirecting topics of religion and/or politics to the appropriate and available forum. You'll find your workload goes waaaayy-down. Grumblers will dissapear as quickly as they arrived.

Those writers with a passionate social or evangelical message who feel the need to express here, why not show the consideration to post it to the right place and not push a wedge between webstaff and web-users. Show some respect for the forum structure. Beyond that, why not show the true courage of said conviction, and place the message where it could be truly debated. I think that the willingness to back the talk with a little walk would certainly dispell any suspicion I would have about manipulation and want for power structure, things moving under the ice.

Sincerity is truly seen in action, not just words.

If you dare have the spirit of real truth, I'll read your words in the Quartermoon.